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#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:09 pm

Vassenor wrote:So how many actual cases of people actually having their lives actually ruined by actual false accusations of sexual assault are there?


Well, as a security guard, I have directly witnessed and heard stories of colleagues being discharged from their contract or outright fired for something as benign as a misplaced comment and stepping his feet into an apartment.

The first thing they remind us at the occasional meetings? That such incidents can destroy us.

So yeah, let's just say that I have the Damocles sword of accusations hanging over me daily.

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Postby Right wing humour squad » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:09 pm

Galloism wrote:
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That’s why we’re trying not associating at all.

If you do that, you should do so in a gender neutral fashion, or you're setting yourself up for a discrimination claim.

Also, it would prevent being horrible on the basis of the gender.


And that’s the problem with discrimination laws.
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Postby Galloism » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:11 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So how many actual cases of people actually having their lives actually ruined by actual false accusations of sexual assault are there?


Well, as a security guard, I have directly witnessed and heard stories of colleagues being discharged from their contract or outright fired for something as benign as a misplaced comment and stepping his feet into an apartment.

The first thing they remind us at the occasional meetings? That such incidents can destroy us.

So yeah, let's just say that I have the Damocles sword of accusations hanging over me daily.

When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.
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Postby Vince Vaughn » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:12 pm

Galloism wrote:
Right wing humour squad wrote:
That’s why we’re trying not associating at all.

If you do that, you should do so in a gender neutral fashion, or you're setting yourself up for a discrimination claim.

Also, it would prevent being horrible on the basis of the gender.


I'm not saying I'm doing it (I'm really not in a position to, as the women are I work with are substantially older than me, so it's not like there'd even be a situation where this could happen), but I have noticed this shift amongst other people in the industry.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:14 pm

Galloism wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Well, as a security guard, I have directly witnessed and heard stories of colleagues being discharged from their contract or outright fired for something as benign as a misplaced comment and stepping his feet into an apartment.

The first thing they remind us at the occasional meetings? That such incidents can destroy us.

So yeah, let's just say that I have the Damocles sword of accusations hanging over me daily.

When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.

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Postby Loben » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:15 pm

Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:Vass asked for quantity.

Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.


Good news, lynchings are now equal opportunity.

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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:17 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Galloism wrote:When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.


Yet in my case, I can't even say that a girl is pretty to my COLLEAGUE (not even the girl in question) without eavesdropping happening and getting my fingers smacked for that.

A load of fucking honk.

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Postby Loben » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:18 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.


Yet in my case, I can't even say that a girl is pretty to my COLLEAGUE (not even the girl in question) without eavesdropping happening and getting my fingers smacked for that.

A load of fucking honk.


hey might be safer to call her a sack of shit.

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Postby New haven america » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:19 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Galloism wrote:When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.

But then how did they get the sensei's to not kidnap all of the children?
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Postby Far Easter Republic » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:20 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
No more dinners with female colleagues. Don’t sit next to them on flights. Book hotel rooms on different floors. Avoid one-on-one meetings.

In fact, as a wealth adviser put it, just hiring a woman these days is “an unknown risk.” What if she took something he said the wrong way?

Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.

Call it the Pence Effect, after U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, who has said he avoids dining alone with any woman other than his wife. In finance, the overarching impact can be, in essence, gender segregation.

Interviews with more than 30 senior executives suggest many are spooked by #MeToo and struggling to cope. “It’s creating a sense of walking on eggshells,” said David Bahnsen, a former managing director at Morgan Stanley who’s now an independent adviser overseeing more than $1.5 billion.

This is hardly a single-industry phenomenon, as men across the country check their behavior at work, to protect themselves in the face of what they consider unreasonable political correctness -- or to simply do the right thing. The upshot is forceful on Wall Street, where women are scarce in the upper ranks. The industry has also long nurtured a culture that keeps harassment complaints out of the courts and public eye, and has so far avoided a mega-scandal like the one that has engulfed Harvey Weinstein.


Source.

Because nobody totally didn't see this coming at all. It's interesting how the calls for caution from some influential women and even some feminists (and the fact that I am quoting Vox is even more surprising) were ignored by the zealous misandrists who just wanted to watch the world men burn. Because when you bite the hand that feeds you, you don't get any more food. And this is increasingly happening across most workplaces in the United States, not just in the corporate sphere. Thanks to #MeToo, women are increasingly being seen by upper management as a liability and are increasingly being isolated in the workplace.

So one would think that women would be looking for ways and means to allay men's fears about false accusations and other kinds of issues brought up in #MeToo in response to the increasingly reduced opportunities and containment of women in the workplace? According to the Bloomberg article I used for the source, it appears they've opted to double down on claims of misogyny:

“If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.”


So, who is to blame for all of this? Men, of course. Men are the ones to blame, because men always are. We're responsible for whatever women do. And the apparent solution to this rests, yet again, on the shoulders of men. We have to "step up" and "not be assholes". Because society making women responsible for their actions is clearly sexism.

However, I am heartened that more and more men are using caution when dealing with women in the workplace and not caving in to this renewed social pressure. My only sincere hope is that this spreads, and that the effects of this backlash against women in the workplace grow. This is a lesson that those who support #MeToo need to learn, so that they do not feel compelled to make the same mistakes again.

So what do we think, NSG? Is this backlash against women in the workplace justified? Is this yet more sexism from men?

The idea was an A, the result a F

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Postby Galloism » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:21 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Galloism wrote:When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.

Sadly, they demanded such out of fear of lawsuit.

Which is not unlike what we're seeing right now, incidentally.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:21 pm

New haven america wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
When I was "working" as a senpai at a karate club the adult instructors touched kids all the time. Both as part of the class and in terms of hugs and shit when it was appropriate. The men can't touch kids thing is a cancer that needs to die.

But then how did they get the sensei's to not kidnap all of the children?


I watched the sensei, the sensai watched me. I was doing just as much touching as him, with both kids and adults.

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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:22 pm

Loben wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Yet in my case, I can't even say that a girl is pretty to my COLLEAGUE (not even the girl in question) without eavesdropping happening and getting my fingers smacked for that.

A load of fucking honk.


hey might be safer to call her a sack of shit.


Your best bet as a security guard is to effectively have C3PO as your role model (i.e. polite robot).

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Postby Sperio » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:23 pm

This is just reverse sexism.
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Postby Xanthal » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:25 pm

If a man feels like the only way he can be sure he won't harass a woman is to stay away from women, that's a problem with the man, not the women. I'm a young(ish) man, I know what it's like to lust, but I also understand respect and self-control. Do I agree with every assertion pushed under the #metoo banner? No. To use that as a condemnation of the movement in general however, or as evidence that the underlying issues it's trying to address aren't valid, doesn't follow.

Innocent until proven guilty is a principle of criminal justice, and an extremely important one, but that's not the real issue here. If it seems like some elements are taking on a mob justice disposition it's because before they started making all that noise, nobody was even trying seriously to find out if these guys were guilty, or if they were found out it was allowed to slide- too often authorities were at best apathetic and at worst actively enabling sexual assault. The whole point of #metoo is to get in people's faces and make them see that this stuff is happening all the time- to force us out of our complacency and end a pervasive pattern of looking the other way.

We also need to acknowledge that HR is not the same thing as a court of law. You can be fired from your job for all sorts of reasons, or indeed no reason at all. Nobody has to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt for your employer to show you the door. Now you can agree or disagree with the justice of that, but the fact is people get the boot all the time for far less than a claim of sexual assault.
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Postby Aclion » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:25 pm

Vince Vaughn wrote:
Galloism wrote:Oh yes, quite a few wrongful convictions and murders based on those grounds. In the US, we have a really bad history of just not caring about the presumption of innocence when it comes to black men, and while that's now being expanded to men in general, black men are still especially at risk.


I'd imagine it's been more than black men, even back in the day. I wouldn't be surprised if men in general who had a dispute with someone in a high place weren't on the receiving end of some flimsy chargers (rape or otherwise). Men in the Wild West (even white ones) were lynched if the town thought they were beating their wives.

Yep, it's social class. Black men were automatically at the bottom and therefore always getting the short end. Actually there were probably more false accusations historically simply because it was less acceptable for a woman to have sex outside of marriage.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Far Easter Republic » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:25 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
But now all the poor oppressed white men don't have to fear having their lives ruined when their sexual activities come back to bite them.


Gamers and white straight cis men, the two most oppressed groups known to mankind :(

Forewarning: Dumb joke, I'm totally aware of the problems unique to the above group. No, not the gamers.

Yep. :clap: :clap:

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Postby Right wing humour squad » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:28 pm

Xanthal wrote:If a man feels like the only way he can be sure he won't harass a woman is to stay away from women, that's a problem with the man, not the women. I'm a young(ish) man, I know what it's like to lust, but I also understand respect and self-control. Do I agree with every assertion pushed under the #metoo banner? No. To use that as a condemnation of the movement in general however, or as evidence that the underlying issues it's trying to address aren't valid, doesn't follow.

Innocent until proven guilty is a principle of criminal justice, and an extremely important one, but that's not the real issue here. If it seems like some elements are taking on a mob justice disposition it's because before they started making all that noise, nobody was even trying seriously to find out if these guys were guilty, or if they were found out it was allowed to slide- too often authorities were at best apathetic and at worst actively enabling sexual assault. The whole point of #metoo is to get in people's faces and make them see that this stuff is happening all the time- to force us out of our complacency and end a pervasive pattern of looking the other way.

We also need to acknowledge that HR is not the same thing as a court of law. You can be fired from your job for all sorts of reasons, or indeed no reason at all. Nobody has to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt for your employer to show you the door. Now you can agree or disagree with the justice of that, but the fact is people get the boot all the time for far less than a claim of sexual assault.


The problem isn’t men harassing women, we already have some effective methods of dealing with this, while women harassing men is still ignored.

It’s fake, overblown and malicious claims. Which is a massively under researched area.
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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Galloism wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

That's a strawman. What's more important to understand is that presumption of innocence should be a central facet of our society, but that is rapidly being eroded.

People, especially people targeted by such, are justifiably concerned by this.

That doesn't mean that what they're doing is ok. Instead of barring one on ones with female employees, they should just bar one on ones in general and maintain an equal work environment. Their female employees aren't individually responsible for the sexist treatment society will give them on the basis of their sex (and, if they are black, doubly so on the basis of their race AND sex). They're part of the system the same as the men are.

We've also forgotten the notion of proportionality. Matt Damon worded it clumsily but he was right in pointing out that not all of the cases are the same in terms of how horrible the behavior was/is.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Loben » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:29 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Loben wrote:
hey might be safer to call her a sack of shit.


Your best bet as a security guard is to effectively have C3PO as your role model (i.e. polite robot).


"Hey, that asshole stole my bag!"
"Fuck off, observe and report."
"But he-"
"OBSERVE AND REPORT"

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Postby Galloism » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:32 pm

Right wing humour squad wrote:
Xanthal wrote:If a man feels like the only way he can be sure he won't harass a woman is to stay away from women, that's a problem with the man, not the women. I'm a young(ish) man, I know what it's like to lust, but I also understand respect and self-control. Do I agree with every assertion pushed under the #metoo banner? No. To use that as a condemnation of the movement in general however, or as evidence that the underlying issues it's trying to address aren't valid, doesn't follow.

Innocent until proven guilty is a principle of criminal justice, and an extremely important one, but that's not the real issue here. If it seems like some elements are taking on a mob justice disposition it's because before they started making all that noise, nobody was even trying seriously to find out if these guys were guilty, or if they were found out it was allowed to slide- too often authorities were at best apathetic and at worst actively enabling sexual assault. The whole point of #metoo is to get in people's faces and make them see that this stuff is happening all the time- to force us out of our complacency and end a pervasive pattern of looking the other way.

We also need to acknowledge that HR is not the same thing as a court of law. You can be fired from your job for all sorts of reasons, or indeed no reason at all. Nobody has to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt for your employer to show you the door. Now you can agree or disagree with the justice of that, but the fact is people get the boot all the time for far less than a claim of sexual assault.


The problem isn’t men harassing women, we already have some effective methods of dealing with this, while women harassing men is still ignored.

It’s fake, overblown and malicious claims. Which is a massively under researched area.

It's worth noting that it doesn't even really have to be malicious.

Your memory is like a telephone game - every time you recall an event you warp it. So if you have something that made you slightly uncomfortable, and you revisit it over and over and over again, it will gradually morph from uncomfortable, to creepy, to harassment, to assaulty, to rapey. The event itself literally can warp in your mind until you remember something, quite vividly and sincerely, that never even happened.

And this isn't a woman thing or a man thing, but a people thing that both men and women can experience.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:35 pm

Loben wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Your best bet as a security guard is to effectively have C3PO as your role model (i.e. polite robot).


"Hey, that asshole stole my bag!"
"Fuck off, observe and report."
"But he-"
"OBSERVE AND REPORT"


If I had a dollar for everytime such a situation happened, I'd have no money.

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Postby Right wing humour squad » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Galloism wrote:
Right wing humour squad wrote:
The problem isn’t men harassing women, we already have some effective methods of dealing with this, while women harassing men is still ignored.

It’s fake, overblown and malicious claims. Which is a massively under researched area.

It's worth noting that it doesn't even really have to be malicious.

Your memory is like a telephone game - every time you recall an event you warp it. So if you have something that made you slightly uncomfortable, and you revisit it over and over and over again, it will gradually morph from uncomfortable, to creepy, to harassment, to assaulty, to rapey. The event itself literally can warp in your mind until you remember something, quite vividly and sincerely, that never even happened.

And this isn't a woman thing or a man thing, but a people thing that both men and women can experience.


Absolutely and memory is a bit worse than telephone games. With how programable it is.

Given the equality of sexual violence between the sexes the meto movement seems to be lacking a large amount of male victims and female predators. So it certainly seems a female on male thing.
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Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:38 pm

Yea man, I think that's just an overreaction to a problem. I'm around girls all the time. I don't get arrested, or accused of anything. It might be because of age, but I think it's a gross misrepresentation of the solution to say "Because men have been accused of assault, I'm not going around women!" That's just a toxic attitude, which fosters gender segregation, and hate of women. It's just a circle.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Right wing humour squad wrote:
Galloism wrote:It's worth noting that it doesn't even really have to be malicious.

Your memory is like a telephone game - every time you recall an event you warp it. So if you have something that made you slightly uncomfortable, and you revisit it over and over and over again, it will gradually morph from uncomfortable, to creepy, to harassment, to assaulty, to rapey. The event itself literally can warp in your mind until you remember something, quite vividly and sincerely, that never even happened.

And this isn't a woman thing or a man thing, but a people thing that both men and women can experience.


Absolutely and memory is a bit worse than telephone games. With how programable it is.

Given the equality of sexual violence between the sexes the meto movement seems to be lacking a large amount of male victims and female predators. So it certainly seems a female on male thing.


How closely have you tracked it? Because there seem to have been quite a few male #metoo tweets.

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