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#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:14 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Live and let live is a terrible basis for a moral system. It is prone to decay and then eventually catastrophic dissolution. All systems are based upon moral systems that need to be upheld which inevitably requires the willing utilization of oppression in order to maintain it. Be it social, monetary, or even legal oppression.


Pet theories aside, there is no real basis to believe that dropping the Christian moral ethic is in any way calamitous. In fact, one could argue that Christianity and its slave morality helped wreck the Roman Empire.

Christianity wrecking the Roman Empire has very little merit to it as far as historical analysis goes.

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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:15 pm

Galloism wrote:
New Mivango wrote:
Pet theories aside, there is no real basis to believe that dropping the Christian moral ethic is in any way calamitous. In fact, one could argue that Christianity and its slave morality helped wreck the Roman Empire.

To be honest, that probably had a lot more to do with lead poisoning.


Lead didn't help, nor did the squabbling bishops and witch hunts against pagans, nor the increasing dependence on foreign mercenaries for troops.
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:16 pm

New Mivango wrote:Monogamy as a social value wasn't widely adopted until after the French Revolution and the Empire/Regency period. It wasn't by any means uncommon for kings to have mistresses, people didn't marry for love, but for practical reasons, and even in puritanical America, Franklin was writing pamphlets on taking mistresses.

People committing adultery doesn't mean monogamy wasn't valued. The taking of mistresses was commonly derided by church figures and illegitimacy was a major social hindrance unless your father happened to be a significant member of the nobility.

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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:18 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
New Mivango wrote:Monogamy as a social value wasn't widely adopted until after the French Revolution and the Empire/Regency period. It wasn't by any means uncommon for kings to have mistresses, people didn't marry for love, but for practical reasons, and even in puritanical America, Franklin was writing pamphlets on taking mistresses.

People committing adultery doesn't mean monogamy wasn't valued. The taking of mistresses was commonly derided by church figures and illegitimacy was a major social hindrance unless your father happened to be a significant member of the nobility.


Believe what you want. I'm sure that Popes Alexander VI, Julius II, and Paul III would agree with you. :twisted:
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:19 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Lmao what mentality? That you don't want your partner fucking other people?


Monogamy is a social experiment best abandoned and left to the 19th and 20th centuries where it failed miserably.

Seems to be working well for me. If it's not your thing then don't do it.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:22 pm

Byzconia wrote:The OP's language was very clearly on the side of "this is all women's fault."


...which it is. If you create an environment where you can frame men of any sort of harassment without evidence and tell people to believe your claims, then you are responsible for whatever backlash that results. Men avoiding women in the workplace is a direct result of #MeToo, and that is on women.

I don't care about companies' PR, I care about women's right to not have to worry about getting assaulted because the world is full of douchebags who think they're entitled to a woman's vagina.


All you care about is sticking it to men. Giving a shit about women means recognising that #MeToo is dangerous.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:22 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:People committing adultery doesn't mean monogamy wasn't valued. The taking of mistresses was commonly derided by church figures and illegitimacy was a major social hindrance unless your father happened to be a significant member of the nobility.


Believe what you want. I'm sure that Popes Alexander VI, Julius II, and Paul III would agree with you. :twisted:

There being corrupt people who break societal norms and values is hardly a newfound revelation.

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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:24 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Byzconia wrote:The OP's language was very clearly on the side of "this is all women's fault."


...which it is. If you create an environment where you can frame men of any sort of harassment without evidence and tell people to believe your claims, then you are responsible for whatever backlash that results. Men avoiding women in the workplace is a direct result of #MeToo, and that is on women.

I don't care about companies' PR, I care about women's right to not have to worry about getting assaulted because the world is full of douchebags who think they're entitled to a woman's vagina.


All you care about is sticking it to men. Giving a shit about women means recognising that #MeToo is dangerous.


Yeah, the Duke Lacrosse Team is ample proof that #MeToo is such a witch hunt and will have serious social consequences.
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
New Mivango wrote:
Believe what you want. I'm sure that Popes Alexander VI, Julius II, and Paul III would agree with you. :twisted:

There being corrupt people who break societal norms and values is hardly a newfound revelation.


Dude, it wasn't just a few "corrupt" people. It was the whole damn culture of the Renaissance period, very libertine and very Greco-Roman. Monks had their own brothels, priests secretly married and/or took concubines, no one even griped about the Borgia bastards until they became too rich and powerful, Francis I was deemed a worthy son of the Catholic Church despite putting a face to syphilis (sadly, they didn't have any notion of condoms back then), and even the very pious Philip II of Spain was hardly a paragon of Christian virtues. Paul might have taught monogamy, but the realities of converting pagan Goths and Germans as well as Romans and Celts made it something only honored in the breach.
Last edited by New Mivango on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
...which it is. If you create an environment where you can frame men of any sort of harassment without evidence and tell people to believe your claims, then you are responsible for whatever backlash that results. Men avoiding women in the workplace is a direct result of #MeToo, and that is on women.



All you care about is sticking it to men. Giving a shit about women means recognising that #MeToo is dangerous.


Yeah, the Duke Lacrosse Team is ample proof that #MeToo is such a witch hunt and will have serious social consequences.


That case is constantly trotted out as if to say all accusations are false whereas a great deal of cases go very much the other way. Go read this book for a wider picture.

Let's not forget that while the specific instance of rape was false the context was a group of guys having a party, inviting strippers over, being racist that the strippers were not white.. where a couple hours after the party an email was sent out opening with..

To whom it may concern, tomorrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex . . all in besides arch and tack please respond

..so it wasn't really some innocent case of choirboys being accused of something wildly out of context.
Last edited by Bombadil on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:38 pm

Bombadil wrote:
New Mivango wrote:
Yeah, the Duke Lacrosse Team is ample proof that #MeToo is such a witch hunt and will have serious social consequences.


That case is constantly trotted out as if to say all accusations are false whereas a great deal of cases go very much the other way. Go read this book for a wider picture.

Let's not forget that while the specific instance of rape was false the context was a group of guys having a party, inviting strippers over, being racist that the strippers were not white.. where a couple hours after the party an email was sent out opening with..

To whom it may concern, tomorrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex . . all in besides arch and tack please respond

..so it wasn't really some innocent case of choirboys being accused of something wildly out of context.


Racism is bad, yes, but slut-shaming men for having stripper parties is a bit much, don't ya think?
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:40 pm

Bombadil wrote:
New Mivango wrote:
Yeah, the Duke Lacrosse Team is ample proof that #MeToo is such a witch hunt and will have serious social consequences.


That case is constantly trotted out as if to say all accusations are false whereas a great deal of cases go very much the other way. Go read this book for a wider picture.

Let's not forget that while the specific instance of rape was false the context was a group of guys having a party, inviting strippers over, being racist that the strippers were not white.. where a couple hours after the party an email was sent out opening with..

To whom it may concern, tomorrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex . . all in besides arch and tack please respond

..so it wasn't really some innocent case of choirboys being accused of something wildly out of context.

You know, people saying awful things doesn't make accusing them of horrible crimes they didn't commit ok, or it would be perfectly ok to accuse Hilary Clinton of murdering a whole busload of men.

Which is definitely not an accusation mind you, but I think given her awful statements, it wouldn't be something wildly out of context.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:45 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:There being corrupt people who break societal norms and values is hardly a newfound revelation.


Dude, it wasn't just a few "corrupt" people. It was the whole damn culture of the Renaissance period, very libertine and very Greco-Roman. Monks had their own brothels, priests secretly married and/or took concubines, no one even griped about the Borgia bastards until they became too rich and powerful, Francis I was deemed a worthy son of the Catholic Church despite putting a face to syphilis (sadly, they didn't have any notion of condoms back then), and even the very pious Philip II of Spain was hardly a paragon of Christian virtues. Paul might have taught monogamy, but the realities of converting pagan Goths and Germans as well as Romans and Celts made it something only honored in the breach.

Oh you mean the same period that saw a lot of condemnation towards the immorality prevalent in society and its institutions leading, in part, to the Protestant Reformation? And then the Counter-Reformation which ushered in a renewed spiritual wave, creating religious orders that were even more austere than previous ones? How Pius V decried the immorality within the church, having criticized Pius IV to his face over his nepotism and immorality, and made church orthodoxy a prominent theme of his Papacy? That same period?

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Kaggeceria
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Postby Kaggeceria » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 pm

Well, an accusation is all it can take to destroy someone's career and reputation, so this fear is understandable.
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New Mivango
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Postby New Mivango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:48 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
New Mivango wrote:
Dude, it wasn't just a few "corrupt" people. It was the whole damn culture of the Renaissance period, very libertine and very Greco-Roman. Monks had their own brothels, priests secretly married and/or took concubines, no one even griped about the Borgia bastards until they became too rich and powerful, Francis I was deemed a worthy son of the Catholic Church despite putting a face to syphilis (sadly, they didn't have any notion of condoms back then), and even the very pious Philip II of Spain was hardly a paragon of Christian virtues. Paul might have taught monogamy, but the realities of converting pagan Goths and Germans as well as Romans and Celts made it something only honored in the breach.

Oh you mean the same period that saw a lot of condemnation towards the immorality prevalent in society and its institutions leading, in part, to the Protestant Reformation? And then the Counter-Reformation which ushered in a renewed spiritual wave, creating religious orders that were even more austere than previous ones? How Pius V decried the immorality within the church, having criticized Pius IV to his face over his nepotism and immorality, and made church orthodoxy a prominent theme of his Papacy? That same period?


If you've read much of the subsequent history of France, Italy, Spain, etc., you'll know that it didn't quite take on the first few hundred attempts.
Society is sick and needs the cancer of traditional morality removed from it, root and stem.
"Bound heart, free spirit." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
"Behold, I teach you the Overman. The Overman is the meaning of the Earth. Let your will say, the Overman shall be the meaning of the Earth." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Nothing has been more inimical to woman than truth. Her chief art is the lie, her supreme concern appearance and beauty." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil
Just your friendly local Nietzschean. No, I do not view my philosophical perspective as "nihilistic." That's a Christian pejorative used by polemicists seeking to eradicate Nietzschean thought.

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Postby Bombadil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:56 pm

Kaggeceria wrote:Well, an accusation is all it can take to destroy someone's career and reputation, so this fear is understandable.


That fear can lead to suppression of information as well. At my prep school there was a teacher who invited boys up to his room at night. A nurse saw a boy going up and reported the teacher. He was let go from the school and the boy left as well. When I told my parents about this incident years later they had no idea. The school never told them.

Similarly at my last company an executive was let go for sexually harassing a member of my team. As part of letting him go it was agreed that he would leave but it would be recorded as a simple resignation. I had to sign a document to say I would not disclose the issue. I didn't and left shortly afterwards for even being asked.

Plenty of actual abuse is hidden for fear of reputation.
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:03 pm

New Mivango wrote:Pet theories aside, there is no real basis to believe that dropping the Christian moral ethic is in any way calamitous. In fact, one could argue that Christianity and its slave morality helped wreck the Roman Empire.


If you were to rip the moral foundations of any civilisation out from under them, then yes, you will see a calamitous fall. Of course, this rarely happens, the transition from one moral system to another is usually slow enough that a sudden and calamitous collapse rarely takes place. As for Christianity being responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire, at most it was the straw that broke the camels back, or, alternatively, although less likely the case, it could have only been something that sped up its inevitable collapse.

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Postby Teachian » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:06 pm

I still broadly support #MeToo, but I’ve been dismayed by some of the results.

I think overall it’s done a lot to shift the conversation and playing field, and I like to believe it’s be a net positive (especially in challenging the concept that someone could be untouchable). Unfortunately, it’s definitely pretty clear that what was supposed to be a rallying cry for equality ended up being more beneficial to some groups of others. Humans are fallable creatures, we draw lines between each other, but when people within the movement can get the excuses and protection #MeToo lamented that powerful men had, it’s a little disheartening.

Honestly, I appreciate bringing the conversation to the forefront, and sending the message that stuff like this isn’t acceptable. But I also think that as a social media movement (or at least one heavily tied to it), that it’s easy for it to go with the “popular” route rather than the right one, which leaves it so susceptible to the witch hunt or one-sidedness some claim it has.
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Postby Reikoku » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:09 pm

New Mivango wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Live and let live is a terrible basis for a moral system. It is prone to decay and then eventually catastrophic dissolution. All systems are based upon moral systems that need to be upheld which inevitably requires the willing utilization of oppression in order to maintain it. Be it social, monetary, or even legal oppression.


Pet theories aside, there is no real basis to believe that dropping the Christian moral ethic is in any way calamitous. In fact, one could argue that Christianity and its slave morality helped wreck the Roman Empire.


Why are you bandying around stupid Nietzschean terms like they're based on actual theological or historical research?

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Postby Kubrath » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:18 pm

So, a few old fossils at the top are spooked that their deviant lifestyle is gonna get them in trouble and now they're scurrying about trying to figure out how not to be dicks? Yawn. This is as much non-news as that one story about sexist air conditioning. Men who are normal, and not sociopaths, which is what you have to be to rise to the top at a place like Morgan Stanley, are doing just fine working alongside their female colleagues.

I, for one, am having a grand old laugh over their damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation. About time they got their just desserts.
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#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

Postby Parhe » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:22 pm

Some people on this thread act like fears of false accusations is misogynous but ignore the facts that, according to Vox, a large chunk of women feel the same ways and false accusations can be made by both men and women, to men and women. As a survivor, I still support the idea of #MeToo, for the most part, but, at the same time, I cannot help but feel ignored, sometimes accidentally as I am in the minority and sometimes purposely to push a certain view.

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So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

Not malicious, but, yes, false. Innocent until proven guilty is what we are suppose to strive for in the US, where the #MeToo movement is centered. I mean, if I accuse someone of stealing my phone, then I, or someone or organization has to prove so.

Kubrath wrote:So, a few old fossils at the top are spooked that their deviant lifestyle is gonna get them in trouble and now they're scurrying about trying to figure out how not to be dicks? Yawn. This is as much non-news as that one story about sexist air conditioning. Men who are normal, and not sociopaths, which is what you have to be to rise to the top at a place like Morgan Stanley, are doing just fine working alongside their female colleagues.

I, for one, am having a grand old laugh over their damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation. About time they got their just desserts.

You don't have to be a dick or deviant to be accused of sexual misconduct. You're as bad as the Yahoo commenter who assume every young black men who is in the news for being killed had connections to gang violence or drugs.
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Postby His Excellence » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:23 pm

New Mivango wrote:All of this still fails to address one of the true root causes of the sexual harassment litigation madness: prudishness. If we stopped teaching people from a young age that sex was dirty and should only be engaged in during relationships, society would be far more easygoing about sexual innuendo, risque humor, etc.

:?: lolwut
So the real villain is personal boundaries and basic etiquette?
Are you sure you're not just mad about getting written up at work for a dirty joke, or something?
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Kubrath
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Postby Kubrath » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:24 pm

Parhe wrote:
Kubrath wrote:So, a few old fossils at the top are spooked that their deviant lifestyle is gonna get them in trouble and now they're scurrying about trying to figure out how not to be dicks? Yawn. This is as much non-news as that one story about sexist air conditioning. Men who are normal, and not sociopaths, which is what you have to be to rise to the top at a place like Morgan Stanley, are doing just fine working alongside their female colleagues.

I, for one, am having a grand old laugh over their damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation. About time they got their just desserts.

You don't have to be a dick or deviant to be accused of sexual misconduct. You're as bad as the Yahoo commenter who assume every young black men who is in the news for being killed had connections to gang violence or drugs.


No, you don't, but the likelihood of that happening is very small. Ya'll are acting as if there's a cabal of women trying to bring about a feminist dystopia.
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