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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:00 pm
by Galloism
Liriena wrote:
Galloism wrote:Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.

That's a good point... but we are talking about a radically different phenomenon with #MeToo. If we speak in terms of the most prominent cases, the pattern in #MeToo is that the men who are accused are generally men who were in a position of power and abused that position of power to engage in sexual violence towards both men and women with impunity. That's not the same as when false rape accusations were used against a systematically oppressed and marginalized underclass to cement prejudice and validate violence against the people belonging to that underclass.

A lot of apologists tried to paint Kavanaugh as the victim of a "lynching", but if you compare the persons and the stakes involved, to call what he had to go through a "lynching" is an insult to the victims of literal lynchings. Kavanaugh wasn't at risk of being kidnapped, tortured and killed with impunity. He was at risk of not being chosen for a position of great power. And more importantly, Kavanaugh was already a man with considerable power and privilege, relatively speaking.

You DO know that they had to put Kavanaugh and his family under secret service protection to save their lives, right, and that there were so many credible threats they required a security detail?

You DID know that right?

EDIT: And, it is worth noting, in college especially where this stuff is occuring, men are disproportionately targeted - men who an oppressed underclass in education. Black men are targeted even more, which makes sense, as they're even more of an underclass.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:03 pm
by Enjuku
I'm personally fine with a #LeaveMeAlone movement 8)

But seriously though, I almost thought OP's complaint was in jest. Cis hetero men by all means shouldn't infringe on a woman's personal space. That combined with the long history of men feeling entitled to touch women various ways, in various contexts, without their consent makes me fail to see how this is womens' fault moreso than men. If anything it should be men who are the "haha look what you did" culprits for being so touchy-feely all these years/centuries and getting their just desserts.

Hopefully in a few more generations we'll have really hammered down what consent means to men. Until then #LeaveMeAlone

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:05 pm
by US-SSR
Or men, particularly powerful men, might could try treating the women who work with them as professional colleagues instead of as sex objects. Just sayin'.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:06 pm
by New haven america
US-SSR wrote:Or men, particularly powerful men, might could try treating the women who work with them as professional colleagues instead of as sex objects. Just sayin'.

Stop talking nonsense.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:06 pm
by Galloism
Bombadil wrote:
Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.


Perhaps there's a degree of truth in men feeling threatened in general but Wall Street is a man's world, I suspect much of this is just an excuse for men to retrench into their little man's club of alpha-male bullshit. They'd much prefer not to actually have to deal with women properly and reduce interaction to their coke-fuelled sessions in strip bars.

A Catalyst study reports that women account for less than 17 percent of senior leaders in investment banking. In private equity, women comprise only 9 percent of senior executives and only 18 percent of total employees, according to a 2017 report by Preqin. At hedge funds and private debt firms, the numbers are similarly low — women hold just 11 percent of leadership roles.

It's hardly something new that women aren't really hired in equal roles in Wall Street.

Perhaps #metoo has gone too far on the edges but Wall Street is really not the place to whine about the issue. It's not to blanket generalise people on Wall Street but I interact enough with the finance industry to know that a lot of those at the top, especially on the trading side, are not the most moral of people.

It's worth note that Wall Street is a place where lying, cheating, and being cutthroat is the way to get to the top.

It's not in any way unusual for men in that kind of arena to think women would do what THEY would do in their place. Then again, women in that arena are probably no different (on average) than the men in that arena either.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:06 pm
by Liriena
Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:That's a good point... but we are talking about a radically different phenomenon with #MeToo. If we speak in terms of the most prominent cases, the pattern in #MeToo is that the men who are accused are generally men who were in a position of power and abused that position of power to engage in sexual violence towards both men and women with impunity. That's not the same as when false rape accusations were used against a systematically oppressed and marginalized underclass to cement prejudice and validate violence against the people belonging to that underclass.

A lot of apologists tried to paint Kavanaugh as the victim of a "lynching", but if you compare the persons and the stakes involved, to call what he had to go through a "lynching" is an insult to the victims of literal lynchings. Kavanaugh wasn't at risk of being kidnapped, tortured and killed with impunity. He was at risk of not being chosen for a position of great power. And more importantly, Kavanaugh was already a man with considerable power and privilege, relatively speaking.

You DO know that they had to put Kavanaugh and his family under secret service protection to save their lives, right, and that there were so many credible threats they required a security detail?

You DID know that right?

Yes. His accusers also faced credible threats.

The fact that he and his family were threatened still doesn't, however, put him in a similar positon to Emmett Till. And more importantly, those threats, the potential of those threats coming to fruition, was not the main motivator behind the accusations (as far as we can tell), nor was it the main goal of those who took those accusations seriously and sought to publicly question him about them. The threats were an unfortunate side-effect of him being a public figure who was credibly accused of doing terrible things.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:07 pm
by Scomagia
While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

I'd like to add that I think women should be cautious about interacting with men alone for more or less all of the same reasons.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:08 pm
by Liriena
Galloism wrote:EDIT: And, it is worth noting, in college especially where this stuff is occuring, men are disproportionately targeted - men who an oppressed underclass in education. Black men are targeted even more, which makes sense, as they're even more of an underclass.

False accusations of sexual assault in American universities are only tangentially related to the issue of Wall Street douchebros being terrified of getting #MeToo'd

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:11 pm
by Galloism
Liriena wrote:
Galloism wrote:You DO know that they had to put Kavanaugh and his family under secret service protection to save their lives, right, and that there were so many credible threats they required a security detail?

You DID know that right?

Yes. His accusers also faced credible threats.


Yes, they did. People (on opposite sides) were out to literally kill them both. Maybe with a knife or a gun instead of a noose.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm
by Costa Fierro
Liriena wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
What's wrong with the Pence rule?

It's peak heterosexual bullshit.


In other words, he's doing something right.

Liriena wrote:False accusations of sexual assault in American universities are only tangentially related to the issue of Wall Street douchebros being terrified of getting #MeToo'd


Not really. In this instance it's the negative backlash taking place and #MeToo supports doubling down on their own bullshit, but being falsely accused of any kind of harassment, not just sexual harassment, can happen and occur to anyone.

So no, it's not tangentially related at all. They're both part of the same wider issue.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm
by Torisakia
This is one of the main reasons I don't go out and try to meet women (well that and I'm a terrible person). Too many guys getting accused of sexual assault and I'll be damned if I do too when I have no desire to sexually assault anyone. It's not really worth the risk. If it means dying alone, then so be it. I get these movements are supposed to bring awareness to such situations but I don't think "man within 5 meters of me = sexual assault" is logical.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm
by Liriena
Scomagia wrote:While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:15 pm
by Liriena
Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yes. His accusers also faced credible threats.


Yes, they did. People (on opposite sides) were out to literally kill them both. Maybe with a knife or a gun instead of a noose.

Which, to me, sounds less like an issue of Kavanaugh being a member of a marginalized minority group with a history of being defamed and wronged, and more of an issue of both of them being on either side of a highly polarized and increasingly heated partisan divide.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:20 pm
by Scomagia
Liriena wrote:
Scomagia wrote:While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

I gave multiple reasons. False accusations are less my concern than misinterpretation or receiving unwanted sexual advances.

Thanks for arbitrarily grouping me, by the way.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:21 pm
by FelrikTheDeleted
Liriena wrote:
Scomagia wrote:While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion, and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.


I suppose not everyone is comfortable around women. Could be a way of avoiding certain situations, however small the chance of it happening, or could be a way of showing your devotion to the person your in the relationship with.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 pm
by Galloism
Liriena wrote:
Galloism wrote:
Yes, they did. People (on opposite sides) were out to literally kill them both. Maybe with a knife or a gun instead of a noose.

Which, to me, sounds less like an issue of Kavanaugh being a member of a marginalized minority group with a history of being defamed and wronged, and more of an issue of both of them being on either side of a highly polarized and increasingly heated partisan divide.

And yet, it's something that very easily could have resulted in their death, based solely on unproven allegations and a mob mentality which is... bad.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:26 pm
by Scomagia
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Liriena wrote:...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion, and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.


I suppose not everyone is comfortable around women. Could be a way of avoiding certain situations, however small the chance of it happening, or could be a way of showing your devotion to the person your in the relationship with.

You've pretty much got it exactly right. I'm comfortable around women, so that isn't the issue. I don't want to invite certain situations, be misunderstood as flirting when I'm not, or have a woman come on to me or otherwise interact with me in a way that's inappropriate for a married man. That's the gist of it.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:29 pm
by US-SSR
New haven america wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Or men, particularly powerful men, might could try treating the women who work with them as professional colleagues instead of as sex objects. Just sayin'.

Stop talking nonsense.

Yes it's really quite awful to have the respect of women you work with, be able to discuss professional and personal issues with them on an equal footing and not have to worry about being falsely accused of harassing them simply because no one at your workplace could ever imagine you doing such a thing.

Look, I've worked with women, including women of color, my entire professional life, and I'm not young. Neither am I some kind of eunuch; if they could live in my head and read my thoughts during any working day I. would. be. so. fired. :blush: Not to mention divorced. :(

But what is so hard about treating women as valued peers with equal rights to respect and influence in the workplace? Apart from too many powerful men who must have had a different edition of How to Pick Up Girls than I read because I don't remember mine having a chapter titled Try Showing Them Your Dick?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:30 pm
by Senkaku
Liriena wrote:Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

I mean, I think it's more that a lot of men are realizing that things they would consider innocuous could be interpreted by the women in their lives as being inappropriate- that doesn't mean the women are dishonest or vipers, that just means the men were careless and inconsiderate, and now are realizing how things were coming across and that it was genuinely unpleasant for their female colleagues or whatever.

Now, cutting all women out of their lives seems like a silly approach to me, but I don't think your outrage is entirely fair.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:31 pm
by Liriena
Scomagia wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
I suppose not everyone is comfortable around women. Could be a way of avoiding certain situations, however small the chance of it happening, or could be a way of showing your devotion to the person your in the relationship with.

You've pretty much got it exactly right. I'm comfortable around women, so that isn't the issue. I don't want to invite certain situations, be misunderstood as flirting when I'm not, or have a woman come on to me or otherwise interact with me in a way that's inappropriate for a married man. That's the gist of it.

My apologies if I misinterpreted you.

I do get where you are coming from in that regard.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:43 pm
by Galloism
Liriena wrote:
Scomagia wrote:While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

Well, keep in mind, that every time there's a mass scandal of some kind, opportunists who lie join in on the coattails of it.

With Kavanaugh, there was Swetnick, who has now been referred for federal charges for making false statements. Hell, with Weinstein, Ms Evans attempted to recruit another woman to lie to police about having told her about the alleged rape, but the woman instead told police that Evans confided in her that she had never been raped and wanted her to perjure herself to support her testimony. With Argento, she accused the boy she statutorily raped of rape to try and deflect her blame.

Every story comes with a hanger-on of someone making shit up.

I couldn't tell you what the statistics are in public cases like this, nor false accusations in a noncriminal context (IE, employment), but when every story comes with one or more hanger-ons that are proven, to a clear and convincing evidence standard, of intentionally lying in order to harm the man, what are men to think?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:44 pm
by Napkiraly
Liriena wrote:
Scomagia wrote:While I think there's some overreaction here, I will say that it's not entirely unreasonable to be cautious about dealing with others in private. As a married man there are very few women that I'm comfortable being alone with for fear of false accusations, misread statements, and unwanted advances (toward me). This may be why my best friend is a lesbian, since I know she's not the sort of person to falsely accuse me and there's zero potential for unwelcome advances given our incompatible orientations.

...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

Why point out only English speaking guys? Sounds awfully bigoted and prejudiced.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:49 pm
by Liriena
Napkiraly wrote:
Liriena wrote:...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

Why point out only English speaking guys? Sounds awfully bigoted and prejudiced.

Because, anecdotally speaking, I've only seen the same attitude in a very small and specific subset of Spanish-speaking men. Namely, middle-aged to boomer-aged chauvinists whose concern is transparently due to them finding their own past behavior questionable in hindsight. Whereas it looks to me (again, anecdotally) like English-speaking men's concerns over #MeToo "going too far" aren't limited to a narrow demographic.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:50 pm
by Digital Planets
NEWSFLASH: #LeaveMeAlone to become #FuckBackmyTendies

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:52 pm
by Liriena
Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:...okay, what the fuck's going on with English-speaking straight dudes?

I have a bunch of female friends and acquaintances, most of them straight, and I am not the least bit worried about being accused of improper behavior in private. So... what the fuck? Did the lot of you collectively decide that a sizeable portion of all women are deceitful vipers out to ruin you?

I know it's a bit naïve to assume everyone you meet is a good, honest person, but this phenomenon of English-speaking men increasingly being paranoid around women looks, from an outsider's perspective, like it borders on mass delusion and it kind of smells like a sort of weird misogyny.

Well, keep in mind, that every time there's a mass scandal of some kind, opportunists who lie join in on the coattails of it.

With Kavanaugh, there was Swetnick, who has now been referred for federal charges for making false statements. Hell, with Weinstein, Ms Evans attempted to recruit another woman to lie to police about having told her about the alleged rape, but the woman instead told police that Evans confided in her that she had never been raped and wanted her to perjure herself to support her testimony. With Argento, she accused the boy she statutorily raped of rape to try and deflect her blame.

Every story comes with a hanger-on of someone making shit up.

I couldn't tell you what the statistics are in public cases like this, nor false accusations in a noncriminal context (IE, employment), but when every story comes with one or more hanger-ons that are proven, to a clear and convincing evidence standard, of intentionally lying in order to harm the man, what are men to think?

I'd think that the reasonable thought in the face of all that wouldn't be "avoid socializing with the entire female gender", much in the same way my reaction to straight male homophobia isn't "avoid socializing with the entirety of straight men".