#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

[Liriena]

Stepping back from the issue of sexual violence in particular, the court of public opinion making up its mind on pretty much every crime, real or imagined, is inevitable regardless.

Millions of people are convinced that Hillary Clinton is a criminal who deserves jailtime (and probably the death penalty), and the same goes for Donald Trump. Millions of people agree that O.J. Simpson is a murderer. Politicians accused of corruption often get metaphorically "lynched" long before there's an actual trial.

In your opinion does the fact a problem exists justify allowing or encouraging it to get worse?

There's room to encourage a greater degree of scrutiny and caution, but I ultimately think that it's good that the court of public opinion works in its own terms, sometimes faster and more efficiently than the criminal justice system.

However, in the case of sexual violence, I do think there needs to be a sort of cultural adjustment. In one of her first videos, Contrapoints spoke about the concept of rape culture, and one idea that stuck with me was how the way our society has learned to conceptualize rapists as an idea of a person can get in the way of us properly dealing with real people who commit rape. Rape is monstruous, but the people who commit rape are usually not completely cruel, malicious and repulsive supervillains who bask in the misery of their victims, and we need a more nuanced understanding of this because it conditions how extreme our reactions can be towards accusations of sexual violence (both in terms of those who accept them as true and those who deny them) and the accused.

[Liriena]

Is it rape?

Doesn't sound like it to me. She was sober, I assume?

Also, why is it always a woman? I like dudes too. Can't I get falsely accused by a guy too?

[Des-Bal]

There's room to encourage a greater degree of scrutiny and caution, but I ultimately think that it's good that the court of public opinion works in its own terms, sometimes faster and more efficiently than the criminal justice system.

However, in the case of sexual violence, I do think there needs to be a sort of cultural adjustment. In one of her first videos, Contrapoints spoke about the concept of rape culture, and one idea that stuck with me was how the way our society has learned to conceptualize rapists as an idea of a person can get in the way of us properly dealing with real people who commit rape. Rape is monstruous, but the people who commit rape are usually not completely cruel, malicious and repulsive supervillains who bask in the misery of their victims, and we need a more nuanced understanding of this because it conditions how extreme our reactions can be towards accusations of sexual violence (both in terms of those who accept them as true and those who deny them) and the accused.

The black men hung all over the south were defendants in he court of public opinion, my view of the institution is not as sunny as yours.

I think that it is inappropriate when we as a society impose consequences on someone who hasn't actually been convicted of anything. The entire idea of the justice system is that courts and not individuals should mete out justice, and I don't think it's appropriate that a person solely by virtue of being accused should have their livelihood ruined.

[Galloism]

Is it rape?

Doesn't sound like it to me. She was sober, I assume?

Also, why is it always a woman? I like dudes too. Can't I get falsely accused by a guy too?

I mean you could, that’s very specifically a possibility.

But given our societal rape culture is much harsher against men than women, and women in that situation are more likely to be believed than men by a broader group of people, and most men recognize this, your chances of this are much lower.

However, the fallout from such would take a much different form. Due to the fact that rape against men is taken less seriously, it’s likely you won’t get so much “presumed guilty rapist”. However, accusations of homosexuality can carry significant weight against you, and could result in lots of social and economic fallout - but on different lines.

[Des-Bal]

Doesn't sound like it to me. She was sober, I assume?

Also, why is it always a woman? I like dudes too. Can't I get falsely accused by a guy too?

Sure but nobody would really care. Maybe if you had recently accused someone else of rape but then you could always accuse your accuser and the whole thing would slip out of the public eye.

[Liriena]

There's room to encourage a greater degree of scrutiny and caution, but I ultimately think that it's good that the court of public opinion works in its own terms, sometimes faster and more efficiently than the criminal justice system.

However, in the case of sexual violence, I do think there needs to be a sort of cultural adjustment. In one of her first videos, Contrapoints spoke about the concept of rape culture, and one idea that stuck with me was how the way our society has learned to conceptualize rapists as an idea of a person can get in the way of us properly dealing with real people who commit rape. Rape is monstruous, but the people who commit rape are usually not completely cruel, malicious and repulsive supervillains who bask in the misery of their victims, and we need a more nuanced understanding of this because it conditions how extreme our reactions can be towards accusations of sexual violence (both in terms of those who accept them as true and those who deny them) and the accused.

The black men hung all over the south were defendants in he court of public opinion, my view of the institution is not as sunny as yours.

I understand that. That's why I'd also support anti-racism movements that would actively seek to challenge and change those prejudices (or at least protect the targets of those prejudices from that violence).

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut that being said, I'm still not a fan of this usage of historical lynchings, carried out by people in a position of power to repress those they sought to maintain power over, as analogous to a contemporary movement that's mostly targeted people who were in a position of power and abused it, and in which the consequences have largely been non-violent.

I think that it is inappropriate when we as a society impose consequences on someone who hasn't actually been convicted of anything. The entire idea of the justice system is that courts and not individuals should mete out justice, and I don't think it's appropriate that a person solely by virtue of being accused should have their livelihood ruined.

I somewhat disagree. Specially when some behaviors are not actually criminalized (and probably shouldn't be), so you can't rely on the criminal justice system to deter the people who engage in them.

[Galloism]

The black men hung all over the south were defendants in he court of public opinion, my view of the institution is not as sunny as yours.

I understand that. That's why I'd also support anti-racism movements that would actively seek to challenge and change those prejudices (or at least protect the targets of those prejudices from that violence).

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut that being said, I'm still not a fan of this usage of historical lynchings, carried out by people in a position of power to repress those they sought to maintain power over, as analogous to a contemporary movement that's mostly targeted people who were in a position of power and abused it, and in which the consequences have largely been non-violent.

I think that it is inappropriate when we as a society impose consequences on someone who hasn't actually been convicted of anything. The entire idea of the justice system is that courts and not individuals should mete out justice, and I don't think it's appropriate that a person solely by virtue of being accused should have their livelihood ruined.

I somewhat disagree. Specially when some behaviors are not actually criminalized (and probably shouldn't be), so you can't rely on the criminal justice system to deter the people who engage in them.

Can you give me an example of something society should act to deter via extrajudicial punishment that should not be actually criminalized and dealt with in the justice system?

[Liriena]

I understand that. That's why I'd also support anti-racism movements that would actively seek to challenge and change those prejudices (or at least protect the targets of those prejudices from that violence).

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut that being said, I'm still not a fan of this usage of historical lynchings, carried out by people in a position of power to repress those they sought to maintain power over, as analogous to a contemporary movement that's mostly targeted people who were in a position of power and abused it, and in which the consequences have largely been non-violent.


I somewhat disagree. Specially when some behaviors are not actually criminalized (and probably shouldn't be), so you can't rely on the criminal justice system to deter the people who engage in them.

Can you give me an example of something society should act to deter via extrajudicial punishment that should not be actually criminalized and dealt with in the justice system?

I'm thinking in terms of verbal assholery in general, not just the sexual type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but verbal harassment is not illegal in the United States, right? At least when it's not a threat?

[Luminesa]

Can you give me an example of something society should act to deter via extrajudicial punishment that should not be actually criminalized and dealt with in the justice system?

I'm thinking in terms of verbal assholery in general, not just the sexual type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but verbal harassment is not illegal in the United States, right? At least when it's not a threat?

You can take someone to court for slander and libel for sure.

[Mattopilos II]

I'm thinking in terms of verbal assholery in general, not just the sexual type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but verbal harassment is not illegal in the United States, right? At least when it's not a threat?

You can take someone to court for slander and libel for sure.

Yeah, but those are pretty specific claims, which doesn't cover all verbal harassment. If it isn't the court that acts on it, it is usually your boss or people around you that act as your judge, so to speak (you get fired or you are seen as a giant asshole). That's the ideal of course, with the possibility of the verbal abuse being ignored by outsiders, or even egged on.

[Galloism]

Can you give me an example of something society should act to deter via extrajudicial punishment that should not be actually criminalized and dealt with in the justice system?

I'm thinking in terms of verbal assholery in general, not just the sexual type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but verbal harassment is not illegal in the United States, right? At least when it's not a threat?

Generally no, although in a school or employment contexts it might, depending on the nature of it.

[Luminesa]

You can take someone to court for slander and libel for sure.

Yeah, but those are pretty specific claims, which doesn't cover all verbal harassment. If it isn't the court that acts on it, it is usually your boss or people around you that act as your judge, so to speak (you get fired or you are seen as a giant asshole). That's the ideal of course, with the possibility of the verbal abuse being ignored by outsiders, or even egged on.

Ahhhh I getcha.

[Aguaria Major]

First post in this forum, so pardon me if I'm off-topic a bit:

Does anyone remember in elementary school at recess, when everything was always, "girls v. boys" or something along those lines, and the girls and boys were always fighting and trying to one-up each other in everything? When I look at the US in a big-picture sense, this is what the nation looks like to me now.

And even though I'm extremely left-wing most of the time, this is something that I will not ever touch, even with a 10-foot pole for the exact reason that workplaces are now apparently getting unintentionally re-segregated.

The way to deal with this, in my opinion, is just to stop making EVERYTHING into a gender issue. Then people will calm down and solve our problems like civilized beings, instead of tribalism, like we're doing right now. I'm a student at university right now, and people have actually gotten offended at me calling my close friends, "dude" regardless of gender. WTF, it's a term of friendship. That's what I'm talking about - I'm going to quote option 3 from the "Busload of Worry" issue:

"This whole culture is foul, and we shouldn't perpetuate it."

FYI, for anyone concerned more with social issues than me who reads this and assumes I'm "sexist" somehow, I'm not saying sexual harassment is a good thing. It's despicable. But I don't think the answer is a gender war. Wars can solve many things, but a full-scale gender war will encompass the entire world and cause the upheaval of societies, even when those societies are not inherently evil, like the Nazis or the USSR (yes, I think the USSR was evil, even though I'm a communist; they slaughtered millions of their own people, corrupted the ideals of communism, and made the ideology one to be feared across the world when I don't think it should be). What will that solve?

[Costa Fierro]

Doesn't sound like it to me. She was sober, I assume?

Yes.

Also, why is it always a woman? I like dudes too. Can't I get falsely accused by a guy too?

Given men aren't believed when they're legitimate victims, why would they make it worse for themselves?

[Major-Tom]

Just checked this thread, and christ, I got hit with some responses. Some of these responses were critical of my viewpoints, which is perfectly fine, and I greatly appreciate some of the effort some folks made in making a rebuttal. Other responses seemed a little hasty and, well, seemed to direct some anger at me, and I suppose that's fine too.

Addressing several points here, because I'm too goddamned tired to format a block text of quotes in order to prove a point.

Ostro: Frankly, I don't understand where you're drawing that 75% number from. The statistics, as I've said, are between 2-10% for false accusations. Whether you find those statistics extremely fallible is not my issue, the issue is where you got 75 fucking percent from. Furthermore, I express great sadness to hear about your experiences with sexual assault, that is regrettable to say the very least. I mean, damn, really, I'm sorry.

But, on the same token, I think you're missing the point by acting like I don't give a damn about false accusations. I thought I had clarified pretty well that I find false accusations particularly dangerous. I don't think anybody, even feminists who you seem to dislike, are totally cheery with false accusations. That's ludicrous.

As for another one of your points, yes, I am concerned about women. I am concerned about men as well - I understand there are men who are victimized by sexual assault. That isn't acceptable. I mentioned twice that the MeToo movement has a way to go before I can consider it an almost perfectly positive movement. I'll spare you opinions on many details here, but one of the areas in which I have grievances with the MeToo movement is in regards to focus on men who are victimized. I think strides have been made - a specific example may be the accusations against Ms. Argento, presented by Mr. Jimmy Bennett. I take these accusations as seriously as I do accusations against powerful men. Again, and I have to restate this, I believe in innocence until proven guilty. But just as I will listen to Mr. Bennett's accusations, I will listen to women who make accusations against men, whether they be men of power or men of lower social status. The same principles should apply.

Thirdly, your point about a poll detailing public opinion on false accusations...well, it makes sense, right? The poll seems to indicate that men & women alike have grievances with false accusations. I...well, don't see anything particularly groundbreaking about that.

___________________

DesBal: I appreciate your input in regards to "false accusations being found out." I can see perfectly well why it may seem strange, perhaps even disingenuous to make the claim I did. But as with most contentious topics I take a heavy stance on, I base my opinions off of research. I'll link a simple article about false accusations here. It does corroborate claims that a good number of false claims are found out. Cops, forensic teams, etc etc, they're not dullards. While some false accusations do fuck over upstanding individuals, a very substantial number of false accusations are found out. It's simpler, I think, than it sounds.

____________________

Luminesia: I think your point about CEOs being "scared" sounds valid on paper, but I have issues with the actual interpretation of your claims. Given what I've stated previously - where many women do not come out and talk about their experiences regarding sexual assault, where many women experience such horrible things, well, at risk of sounding like an asshole, I won't pour my heart out for CEOs who are worried about this issue. Maybe some of them are genuinely worried, genuinely innocent people who are worried - but I don't see many high level executives with excellent legal teams, money, and social status being falsely accused and thrown to jail over it. I just don't.


In my first post here, perhaps I was too confrontational on this issue and neglected a few caveats I should've pointed out. Fine, I accept that. But I think a good number of people are too comfortable looking at relatively small cases & figures here. In other words, the desire to focus on men who feel scared or the dilemma of false accusations, which I never tried to dismiss. It's fine to take interest in these things and try to work these things out. I think that's a positive thing - I just find that a lot of people want to look exclusively at these things, while simultaneously ignoring another huge issue - that is, under reported sexual assault, harassment, and rape in many facets of American society.

[Imperializt Russia]

I accused him of being vindictive when he said that anyone acquitted of a rape accusation should be able to sue their accuser.

In what sense is that vindictive? Would you consider it vindictive to make the same statement with regards to accusations of another crime?

The court rarely finds that the accusations are falsified. Because, y'know, that rarely happens.

Truly falsified accusations are generally pretty easy to dismantle in court, and are usually recognised as such.

Claims that cannot be accepted to beyond a reasonable doubt are not the same thing as "false". And being unable to be found guilty of such accusations, beyond a reasonable doubt, is not innocence.

The inherent nature of sexual violence and sexual crimes - especially historic instances - is that courts are not well-equipped to deal with them, and all that's really left is just one person's word against another's.

[Luminesa]

Just checked this thread, and christ, I got hit with some responses. Some of these responses were critical of my viewpoints, which is perfectly fine, and I greatly appreciate some of the effort some folks made in making a rebuttal. Other responses seemed a little hasty and, well, seemed to direct some anger at me, and I suppose that's fine too.

Addressing several points here, because I'm too goddamned tired to format a block text of quotes in order to prove a point.

Ostro: Frankly, I don't understand where you're drawing that 75% number from. The statistics, as I've said, are between 2-10% for false accusations. Whether you find those statistics extremely fallible is not my issue, the issue is where you got 75 fucking percent from. Furthermore, I express great sadness to hear about your experiences with sexual assault, that is regrettable to say the very least. I mean, damn, really, I'm sorry.

But, on the same token, I think you're missing the point by acting like I don't give a damn about false accusations. I thought I had clarified pretty well that I find false accusations particularly dangerous. I don't think anybody, even feminists who you seem to dislike, are totally cheery with false accusations. That's ludicrous.

As for another one of your points, yes, I am concerned about women. I am concerned about men as well - I understand there are men who are victimized by sexual assault. That isn't acceptable. I mentioned twice that the MeToo movement has a way to go before I can consider it an almost perfectly positive movement. I'll spare you opinions on many details here, but one of the areas in which I have grievances with the MeToo movement is in regards to focus on men who are victimized. I think strides have been made - a specific example may be the accusations against Ms. Argento, presented by Mr. Jimmy Bennett. I take these accusations as seriously as I do accusations against powerful men. Again, and I have to restate this, I believe in innocence until proven guilty. But just as I will listen to Mr. Bennett's accusations, I will listen to women who make accusations against men, whether they be men of power or men of lower social status. The same principles should apply.

Thirdly, your point about a poll detailing public opinion on false accusations...well, it makes sense, right? The poll seems to indicate that men & women alike have grievances with false accusations. I...well, don't see anything particularly groundbreaking about that.

___________________

DesBal: I appreciate your input in regards to "false accusations being found out." I can see perfectly well why it may seem strange, perhaps even disingenuous to make the claim I did. But as with most contentious topics I take a heavy stance on, I base my opinions off of research. I'll link a simple article about false accusations here. It does corroborate claims that a good number of false claims are found out. Cops, forensic teams, etc etc, they're not dullards. While some false accusations do fuck over upstanding individuals, a very substantial number of false accusations are found out. It's simpler, I think, than it sounds.

____________________

Luminesia: I think your point about CEOs being "scared" sounds valid on paper, but I have issues with the actual interpretation of your claims. Given what I've stated previously - where many women do not come out and talk about their experiences regarding sexual assault, where many women experience such horrible things, well, at risk of sounding like an asshole, I won't pour my heart out for CEOs who are worried about this issue. Maybe some of them are genuinely worried, genuinely innocent people who are worried - but I don't see many high level executives with excellent legal teams, money, and social status being falsely accused and thrown to jail over it. I just don't.


In my first post here, perhaps I was too confrontational on this issue and neglected a few caveats I should've pointed out. Fine, I accept that. But I think a good number of people are too comfortable looking at relatively small cases & figures here. In other words, the desire to focus on men who feel scared or the dilemma of false accusations, which I never tried to dismiss. It's fine to take interest in these things and try to work these things out. I think that's a positive thing - I just find that a lot of people want to look exclusively at these things, while simultaneously ignoring another huge issue - that is, under reported sexual assault, harassment, and rape in many facets of American society.

I don’t think we need to necessarily feel bad for CEOs, but rather for the male workers beneath them who don’t have good legal teams and power. Imagine being the janitor and you get accused by the boss’s secretary of feeling her up, guess who’s going to jail for a while? The janitor. Even if he didn’t do it, he may or may not be able to afford an attorney, and thus he will suffer.

[Australian rePublic]

--EDITED-OUT--

[Bore Ragnarok]

You Americans are so funny.

[Costa Fierro]

The court rarely finds that the accusations are falsified. Because, y'know, that rarely happens.

Usually because the police find out that it's false beforehand and do not proceed with charging someone, or the court does not find out until after a sentence has been handed down.

[Imperializt Russia]

The court rarely finds that the accusations are falsified. Because, y'know, that rarely happens.

Usually because the police find out that it's false beforehand and do not proceed with charging someone, or the court does not find out until after a sentence has been handed down.

Or the police do not find that it is false, but due to "lack of evidence" - an inherent problem with the nature of sexual violence as a crime - do not pass it forwards for prosecution at all.

If the court gets so far as handing down a criminal sentence before "finding out" it's false then it hasn't done its job very well. Like with any wrongful conviction.

[Thuzbekistan]

Usually because the police find out that it's false beforehand and do not proceed with charging someone, or the court does not find out until after a sentence has been handed down.

Or the police do not find that it is false, but due to "lack of evidence" - an inherent problem with the nature of sexual violence as a crime - do not pass it forwards for prosecution at all.

If the court gets so far as handing down a criminal sentence before "finding out" it's false then it hasn't done its job very well. Like with any wrongful conviction.

Which is unfortunate when the case is real, but necessary to ensure no innocent people are tossed in prison.

[Des-Bal]

I'm thinking in terms of verbal assholery in general, not just the sexual type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but verbal harassment is not illegal in the United States, right? At least when it's not a threat?

Or transgender people working around children. If you authorize trial by public opinion you authorize it on everybody and then pray that a mob never coalesces in a way you aren't happy with.

DesBal: I appreciate your input in regards to "false accusations being found out." I can see perfectly well why it may seem strange, perhaps even disingenuous to make the claim I did. But as with most contentious topics I take a heavy stance on, I base my opinions off of research. I'll link a simple article about false accusations here. It does corroborate claims that a good number of false claims are found out. Cops, forensic teams, etc etc, they're not dullards. While some false accusations do fuck over upstanding individuals, a very substantial number of false accusations are found out. It's simpler, I think, than it sounds.

1.I don't actually see how that suggests most false claims are found out, given that, again, when a false claim is not found out it would be recorded as a legitimate claim.
2. The suggestion seems to be that if fewer men are exonerated after the fact for rape , then necessarily that means that it's actually pretty easy to catch a fake claim when it could mean the exact opposite thing- that when someone is convicted of a false rape claim there is very little hope of being exonerated after the fact.
3.It has nothing to do with false allegations where the motive isn't to see the person convicted.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Usually because the police find out that it's false beforehand and do not proceed with charging someone, or the court does not find out until after a sentence has been handed down.

Or the police do not find that it is false, but due to "lack of evidence" - an inherent problem with the nature of sexual violence as a crime - do not pass it forwards for prosecution at all.

If the court gets so far as handing down a criminal sentence before "finding out" it's false then it hasn't done its job very well. Like with any wrongful conviction.

Lack of evidence sounds like a very good reason not to charge somebody.

[Des-Bal]

Lack of evidence sounds like a very good reason not to charge somebody.

Lack of evidence implies that charging someone is either wasting everyone's time and money or hoping that a miscarriage of justice will be perpetrated.