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#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:07 pm

Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.


Perhaps there's a degree of truth in men feeling threatened in general but Wall Street is a man's world, I suspect much of this is just an excuse for men to retrench into their little man's club of alpha-male bullshit. They'd much prefer not to actually have to deal with women properly and reduce interaction to their coke-fuelled sessions in strip bars.

A Catalyst study reports that women account for less than 17 percent of senior leaders in investment banking. In private equity, women comprise only 9 percent of senior executives and only 18 percent of total employees, according to a 2017 report by Preqin. At hedge funds and private debt firms, the numbers are similarly low — women hold just 11 percent of leadership roles.

It's hardly something new that women aren't really hired in equal roles in Wall Street.

Perhaps #metoo has gone too far on the edges but Wall Street is really not the place to whine about the issue. It's not to blanket generalise people on Wall Street but I interact enough with the finance industry to know that a lot of those at the top, especially on the trading side, are not the most moral of people.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:09 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
He was asked to move back to his original seat, which was next to his wife. He wasn't asked to move away from her.

Apologies, wiki was sourcing the mail.


Lol.

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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:13 pm

The thing is, yeah this whole thing is fucked
At the end of the day innocent until proven guilty means a shit ton of guilty people will get off free. And that means that crimes like rape, crimes that leave long lasting trauma but where there’s so many obstacles to proving it. You have to question what’s worse, the guilty getting away or the innocent being found guilty
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:14 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Apologies, wiki was sourcing the mail.


Lol.


Oh no, that isn't wrong actually. They had previously swapped seats because she wanted to sit next to the window, so the location in comparison to the pregnant wife didn't change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182869

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:15 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The thing is, yeah this whole thing is fucked
At the end of the day innocent until proven guilty means a shit ton of guilty people will get off free. And that means that crimes like rape, crimes that leave long lasting trauma but where there’s so many obstacles to proving it. You have to question what’s worse, the guilty getting away or the innocent being found guilty

I'd always say the guilty getting away free. Rape does cause trauma, significant trauma; I know this first hand. However, a rape conviction pretty much ends the accused's life, for any practical purposes.

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Postby Byzconia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:17 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
No more dinners with female colleagues. Don’t sit next to them on flights. Book hotel rooms on different floors. Avoid one-on-one meetings.

In fact, as a wealth adviser put it, just hiring a woman these days is “an unknown risk.” What if she took something he said the wrong way?

Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.

Call it the Pence Effect, after U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, who has said he avoids dining alone with any woman other than his wife. In finance, the overarching impact can be, in essence, gender segregation.

Interviews with more than 30 senior executives suggest many are spooked by #MeToo and struggling to cope. “It’s creating a sense of walking on eggshells,” said David Bahnsen, a former managing director at Morgan Stanley who’s now an independent adviser overseeing more than $1.5 billion.

This is hardly a single-industry phenomenon, as men across the country check their behavior at work, to protect themselves in the face of what they consider unreasonable political correctness -- or to simply do the right thing. The upshot is forceful on Wall Street, where women are scarce in the upper ranks. The industry has also long nurtured a culture that keeps harassment complaints out of the courts and public eye, and has so far avoided a mega-scandal like the one that has engulfed Harvey Weinstein.


Source.

Because nobody totally didn't see this coming at all. It's interesting how the calls for caution from some influential women and even some feminists (and the fact that I am quoting Vox is even more surprising) were ignored by the zealous misandrists who just wanted to watch the world men burn. Because when you bite the hand that feeds you, you don't get any more food. And this is increasingly happening across most workplaces in the United States, not just in the corporate sphere. Thanks to #MeToo, women are increasingly being seen by upper management as a liability and are increasingly being isolated in the workplace.

So one would think that women would be looking for ways and means to allay men's fears about false accusations and other kinds of issues brought up in #MeToo in response to the increasingly reduced opportunities and containment of women in the workplace? According to the Bloomberg article I used for the source, it appears they've opted to double down on claims of misogyny:

“If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.”


So, who is to blame for all of this? Men, of course. Men are the ones to blame, because men always are. We're responsible for whatever women do. And the apparent solution to this rests, yet again, on the shoulders of men. We have to "step up" and "not be assholes". Because society making women responsible for their actions is clearly sexism.

However, I am heartened that more and more men are using caution when dealing with women in the workplace and not caving in to this renewed social pressure. My only sincere hope is that this spreads, and that the effects of this backlash against women in the workplace grow. This is a lesson that those who support #MeToo need to learn, so that they do not feel compelled to make the same mistakes again.

So what do we think, NSG? Is this backlash against women in the workplace justified? Is this yet more sexism from men?


So, in summation: Powerful men assaulted women, women spoke up, now powerful men are scared to hire women because they can't keep their dicks in their pants, and it's all women's fault.

The shitshow around Mueller's accusation should be enough to show how difficult it actually is to pull off a successful false accusation against men of power. But of course, none of this matters, because OP will just assume that every single accusation of sexual assault is false because women are all evil lying harpies who hate men.

Do false accusations happen? Sure. Do they happen as often as you're portraying? Not even close.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:17 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Lol.


Oh no, that isn't wrong actually. They had previously swapped seats because she wanted to sit next to the window, so the location in comparison to the pregnant wife didn't change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182869


Exactly. He wasn't asked to move away from his wife, just take his original seat.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
No more dinners with female colleagues. Don’t sit next to them on flights. Book hotel rooms on different floors. Avoid one-on-one meetings.

In fact, as a wealth adviser put it, just hiring a woman these days is “an unknown risk.” What if she took something he said the wrong way?

Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.

Call it the Pence Effect, after U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, who has said he avoids dining alone with any woman other than his wife. In finance, the overarching impact can be, in essence, gender segregation.

Interviews with more than 30 senior executives suggest many are spooked by #MeToo and struggling to cope. “It’s creating a sense of walking on eggshells,” said David Bahnsen, a former managing director at Morgan Stanley who’s now an independent adviser overseeing more than $1.5 billion.

This is hardly a single-industry phenomenon, as men across the country check their behavior at work, to protect themselves in the face of what they consider unreasonable political correctness -- or to simply do the right thing. The upshot is forceful on Wall Street, where women are scarce in the upper ranks. The industry has also long nurtured a culture that keeps harassment complaints out of the courts and public eye, and has so far avoided a mega-scandal like the one that has engulfed Harvey Weinstein.


Source.

Because nobody totally didn't see this coming at all. It's interesting how the calls for caution from some influential women and even some feminists (and the fact that I am quoting Vox is even more surprising) were ignored by the zealous misandrists who just wanted to watch the world men burn. Because when you bite the hand that feeds you, you don't get any more food. And this is increasingly happening across most workplaces in the United States, not just in the corporate sphere. Thanks to #MeToo, women are increasingly being seen by upper management as a liability and are increasingly being isolated in the workplace.

So one would think that women would be looking for ways and means to allay men's fears about false accusations and other kinds of issues brought up in #MeToo in response to the increasingly reduced opportunities and containment of women in the workplace? According to the Bloomberg article I used for the source, it appears they've opted to double down on claims of misogyny:

“If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.”


So, who is to blame for all of this? Men, of course. Men are the ones to blame, because men always are. We're responsible for whatever women do. And the apparent solution to this rests, yet again, on the shoulders of men. We have to "step up" and "not be assholes". Because society making women responsible for their actions is clearly sexism.

However, I am heartened that more and more men are using caution when dealing with women in the workplace and not caving in to this renewed social pressure. My only sincere hope is that this spreads, and that the effects of this backlash against women in the workplace grow. This is a lesson that those who support #MeToo need to learn, so that they do not feel compelled to make the same mistakes again.

So what do we think, NSG? Is this backlash against women in the workplace justified? Is this yet more sexism from men?


So, in summation: Powerful men assaulted women, women spoke up, now powerful men are scared to hire women because they can't keep their dicks in their pants, and it's all women's fault.

The shitshow around Mueller's accusation should be enough to show how difficult it actually is to pull off a successful false accusation against men of power. But of course, none of this matters, because OP will just assume that every single accusation of sexual assault is false because women are all evil lying harpies who hate men.

Do false accusations happen? Sure. Do they happen as often as you're portraying? Not even close.

I don't think that's what has been said at all. Companies are worried about putting men and women together because if their's an accusation, true or false, it's a pr shitshow and potential costly court case.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The thing is, yeah this whole thing is fucked
At the end of the day innocent until proven guilty means a shit ton of guilty people will get off free. And that means that crimes like rape, crimes that leave long lasting trauma but where there’s so many obstacles to proving it. You have to question what’s worse, the guilty getting away or the innocent being found guilty


The innocent being found guilty. It's always the innocent being found guilty that is worse.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Oh no, that isn't wrong actually. They had previously swapped seats because she wanted to sit next to the window, so the location in comparison to the pregnant wife didn't change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182869


Exactly. He wasn't asked to move away from his wife, just take his original seat.

Do you believe the policy is justified?

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:23 pm

Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:23 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Exactly. He wasn't asked to move away from his wife, just take his original seat.

Do you believe the policy is justified?


If it gets me away from kids on a flight then absolutely.

I'm willing to accept benefits that come with my gender.
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Scomagia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:24 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The thing is, yeah this whole thing is fucked
At the end of the day innocent until proven guilty means a shit ton of guilty people will get off free. And that means that crimes like rape, crimes that leave long lasting trauma but where there’s so many obstacles to proving it. You have to question what’s worse, the guilty getting away or the innocent being found guilty

The innocent being found guilty. It's a stupidly simple question for any non-authoritarian to answer.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:25 pm

Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.

Their are sucky things he's done but I don't think this is one of the ones he really needs criticising for.

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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:The thing is, yeah this whole thing is fucked
At the end of the day innocent until proven guilty means a shit ton of guilty people will get off free. And that means that crimes like rape, crimes that leave long lasting trauma but where there’s so many obstacles to proving it. You have to question what’s worse, the guilty getting away or the innocent being found guilty


The innocent being found guilty. It's always the innocent being found guilty that is worse.

I agree, but you can see why the victims are angry
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?
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Postby Tobleste » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:28 pm

The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:I like the “Just try not to be an asshole.” response.

Easy, simple and efficient.


I like how the OP mentions it and the just tramples on and misses the point. Obviously women should accept being assaulted and work on in silence.
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Postby New haven america » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:28 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?

Well for starters, he's Mike Pence.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:29 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?

It’s a little too shocking for some
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Postby Liriena » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:31 pm

Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:Vass asked for quantity.

Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.

That's a good point... but we are talking about a radically different phenomenon with #MeToo. If we speak in terms of the most prominent cases, the pattern in #MeToo is that the men who are accused are generally men who were in a position of power and abused that position of power to engage in sexual violence towards both men and women with impunity. That's not the same as when false rape accusations were used against a systematically oppressed and marginalized underclass to cement prejudice and validate violence against the people belonging to that underclass.

A lot of apologists tried to paint Kavanaugh as the victim of a "lynching", but if you compare the persons and the stakes involved, to call what he had to go through a "lynching" is an insult to the victims of literal lynchings. Kavanaugh wasn't at risk of being kidnapped, tortured and killed with impunity. He was at risk of not being chosen for a position of great power. And more importantly, Kavanaugh was already a man with considerable power and privilege, relatively speaking.
Last edited by Liriena on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Liriena » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:33 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?

It's peak heterosexual bullshit.
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:33 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?

That it's Mike Pence firstly, that's its creepy and immature for supposedly grown adults secondly.

Grow up and learn to get along or bugger off. The fact that the Vice-President's can even say this and not be laughed out of every room he walks into gives some insight as to why things are so crap.
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Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:33 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.


What's wrong with the Pence rule?

You are overreacting. You can go out with a girl/guy. No means no. Simple.



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Postby Cedoria » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:39 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Stupid response is stupid.

If you're emulating Mike Pence, you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is. Good rule for general life.

Their are sucky things he's done but I don't think this is one of the ones he really needs criticising for.

If people responded to it with the hysterical laughter it merits, i wouldn't bother.

But when people like our good OP take it seriously as confirming every paranoiac fantasy they've ever had, it merits criticism. If it were treated as ridiculously as it should be, you'd be right.
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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:47 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Byzconia wrote:So, in summation: Powerful men assaulted women, women spoke up, now powerful men are scared to hire women because they can't keep their dicks in their pants, and it's all women's fault.

The shitshow around Mueller's accusation should be enough to show how difficult it actually is to pull off a successful false accusation against men of power. But of course, none of this matters, because OP will just assume that every single accusation of sexual assault is false because women are all evil lying harpies who hate men.

Do false accusations happen? Sure. Do they happen as often as you're portraying? Not even close.

I don't think that's what has been said at all. Companies are worried about putting men and women together because if their's an accusation, true or false, it's a pr shitshow and potential costly court case.


The OP's language was very clearly on the side of "this is all women's fault." All of it was about how "I hope women are happy that men have decided to hire less women now!" Regardless, even going on your point, that's not an excuse to deliberately choose to not hire women (or to deliberately hire them in a separate capacity to men). That's literally discrimination. I don't care about companies' PR, I care about women's right to not have to worry about getting assaulted because the world is full of douchebags who think they're entitled to a woman's vagina.
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