The Queer Identity

[Agarntrop]

So any group that faced bullying, violence, rejection, and harassment would have a similar suicide rate? I don't know of a single group of people that comes close to those numbers aside from the mentally ill.

Gay people
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... le/2604258

28.5% of students who identified as sexual minorities reported suicide attempts before implementation of same-sex marriage policies

And autistic people
https://www.autistica.org.uk/what-is-au ... and-autism

[Wielkavia]

"More than half of transgender male teens who participated in the survey reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, while 29.9 percent of transgender female teens said they attempted suicide. Among non-binary youth, 41.8 percent of respondents stated that they had attempted suicide at some point in their lives." Human Rights Campaign 9/12/18

Alright. Glad you found what's probably a good source.
I already knew that the suicide rate among trans people was greater than the regular rate, forgot it was that high.

However, the next part is what makes the rate so high.
You and Shapiro seem to think that simply being trans causes it because y'all think it's a mental disorder.
However, the real cause of the high suicide attempt rate is because of factors such as: discrimination; bullying; violence; rejection by family, friends, and community; and harassment.
And being trans ain't a mental disorder either.

I'm sure a part of the attempt rate is bullying, not fitting in, etc., but that's not the reason behind all the attempts. There's plenty of places where these people fit in and feel welcome, they usually have depression coupled in. "Individuals who identify as transgender tend to experience higher rates of mental health issues than the general population. While approximately 6.7 percent of the general United States population suffers from depression and 18 percent grapple with some iteration of an anxiety disorder, nearly half of all individuals who identify as transgender experience these issues. What's more, over 41 percent of trans men and women are estimated to have attempted suicide — a rate that's nearly nine times as high as the rate of cisgender Americans. "
-Psychology Today

https://ibb.co/KzVhQYX
Here's an image with the suicidality among other things events that happened with post reassignment surgery transgender people. They excluded people hospitalized for gender identity disorder.

[Des-Bal]

Depression is a mental illness.

Yes?

And autistic people
https://www.autistica.org.uk/what-is-au ... and-autism

So people with a disorder effecting the mind.

Gay people
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... le/2604258

28.5% of students who identified as sexual minorities reported suicide attempts before implementation of same-sex marriage policies

(Yes, it's technically lower than the stat for trans people, but this only goes back to 1999. Discrimination against gay people was already on quite a strong decline by then)

Well I certainly wouldn't suggest that mistreatment can't contribute to suicide but that's still an impressive difference.

[Valgora]

Alright. Glad you found what's probably a good source.
I already knew that the suicide rate among trans people was greater than the regular rate, forgot it was that high.

However, the next part is what makes the rate so high.
You and Shapiro seem to think that simply being trans causes it because y'all think it's a mental disorder.
However, the real cause of the high suicide attempt rate is because of factors such as: discrimination; bullying; violence; rejection by family, friends, and community; and harassment.
And being trans ain't a mental disorder either.

I'm sure a part of the attempt rate is bullying, not fitting in, etc., but that's not the reason behind all the attempts. There's plenty of places where these people fit in and feel welcome, they usually have depression coupled in. "Individuals who identify as transgender tend to experience higher rates of mental health issues than the general population. While approximately 6.7 percent of the general United States population suffers from depression and 18 percent grapple with some iteration of an anxiety disorder, nearly half of all individuals who identify as transgender experience these issues. What's more, over 41 percent of trans men and women are estimated to have attempted suicide — a rate that's nearly nine times as high as the rate of cisgender Americans. "
-Psychology Today

https://ibb.co/KzVhQYX
Here's an image with the suicidality among other things events that happened with post reassignment surgery transgender people. They excluded people hospitalized for gender identity disorder.

What do you think would cause depression?
Discrimination, bullying, violence, rejection from loved ones, and harassment would cause depression in those who are trans.
Depression then usually leads to things like thoughts of suicide.

[Agarntrop]

So a disorder that affects the mind.

Still, autism and aspergers' syndrome are developmental disorders, not 'mental illnesses'.

[Wielkavia]

I'm sure a part of the attempt rate is bullying, not fitting in, etc., but that's not the reason behind all the attempts. There's plenty of places where these people fit in and feel welcome, they usually have depression coupled in. "Individuals who identify as transgender tend to experience higher rates of mental health issues than the general population. While approximately 6.7 percent of the general United States population suffers from depression and 18 percent grapple with some iteration of an anxiety disorder, nearly half of all individuals who identify as transgender experience these issues. What's more, over 41 percent of trans men and women are estimated to have attempted suicide — a rate that's nearly nine times as high as the rate of cisgender Americans. "
-Psychology Today

https://ibb.co/KzVhQYX
Here's an image with the suicidality among other things events that happened with post reassignment surgery transgender people. They excluded people hospitalized for gender identity disorder.

What do you think would cause depression?
Discrimination, bullying, violence, rejection from loved ones, and harassment would cause depression in those who are trans.
Depression then usually leads to things like thoughts of suicide.

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

[Agarntrop]

What do you think would cause depression?
Discrimination, bullying, violence, rejection from loved ones, and harassment would cause depression in those who are trans.
Depression then usually leads to things like thoughts of suicide.

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

Umm yes

[Des-Bal]

Still, autism and aspergers' syndrome are developmental disorders, not 'mental illnesses'.

Sure, they're just illnesses with mental effects.

[Valgora]

What do you think would cause depression?
Discrimination, bullying, violence, rejection from loved ones, and harassment would cause depression in those who are trans.
Depression then usually leads to things like thoughts of suicide.

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

Having reassignment surgery doesn't get rid of what can cause depression.
It may make you feel better and happier; however, it can't remove depression that comes from factors like rejection from loved ones.

[Migdal Bavel]

Well I certainly wouldn't suggest that mistreatment can't contribute to suicide but that's still an impressive difference.

Is it? Given that the base is, what, around 5%, the gay people are already at like six times the normal. Given an extra push, given some even worse discrimination, increasing that by another 33ish%... honestly doesn't seem that incredible to me.

In any case, I went to... a very high pressure uni (no comment on exactly which one). By graduation, more than half of our students had either depression or some form of anxiety disorder.
Point being, whist sometimes depression just happens (mine did) environment can contribute to mental illness. So higher rates of depression might also be a result of prejudice.

[Agarntrop]

Still, autism and aspergers' syndrome are developmental disorders, not 'mental illnesses'.

Sure, they're just illnesses with mental effects.

1. They're disorders, not illnesses
2. You specifically labelled 'mental illnesses'

[Migdal Bavel]

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

I'm sure this is just an oversight, but you actually haven't given any stats for suicide-attempt rates amongst those who have undergone reassignment surgery. Just for trans people in general. You claimed it was unchanged, but haven't provided any proof.

Sure, they're just illnesses with mental effects.

Having the flu has mental effects.

[Petrasylvania]

Geesh, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I know OP's opinion is rather silly, but exclusion without protection?

C'est la vie.

Your vie maybe. Easy to push for ridiculous things when you assume it'll never happen to you.

[Ifreann]

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

Having reassignment surgery doesn't get rid of what can cause depression.
It may make you feel better and happier; however, it can't remove depression that comes from factors like rejection from loved ones.

As the author of the article this thread is about, but which the OP didn't see fit to link to, said, in her case transitioning actually made her feel worse.

Her whole point is that it shouldn't matter whether surgery will make her feel better, she should be allowed to have because she wants it.

[Wielkavia]

Even in people who have had reassignment surgery?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thinking_Face_Emoji_large.png?v=1480481060
(Sorry for some reason I can't do images it always says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct." even when I use imgur or other upload sites.)

I'm sure this is just an oversight, but you actually haven't given any stats for suicide-attempt rates amongst those who have undergone reassignment surgery. Just for trans people in general. You claimed it was unchanged, but haven't provided any proof.

Um yes I did. I posted the Info table from it but here's the whole report. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

[Wielkavia]

Trans people should be allowed to have reassignment surgery should they wish but it should never be covered by the state in the case of free healthcare or free health insurance.

[The New California Republic]

Trans people should be allowed to have reassignment surgery should they wish but it should never be covered by the state in the case of free healthcare or free health insurance.

The NHS does it, why is that wrong?

[Wielkavia]

I'm a fiscal conservative and I believe that government funding shouldn't be allocated to a surgery that is not necessary to live and according to the research I gave earlier doesn't help with depression.

[Migdal Bavel]

I'm sure this is just an oversight, but you actually haven't given any stats for suicide-attempt rates amongst those who have undergone reassignment surgery. Just for trans people in general. You claimed it was unchanged, but haven't provided any proof.

Um yes I did. I posted the Info table from it but here's the whole report. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Sorry, that's my bad. The thread's moving fast, and I missed that. I'll take a look.

[The New California Republic]

I'm a fiscal conservative and I believe that government funding shouldn't be allocated to a surgery that is not necessary to live

What a fucking weird metric to use. Lots of surgery can be covered by the NHS that isn't "necessary to live", such as hip replacement surgery, or skin graft surgery etc.

and according to the research I gave earlier doesn't help with depression.

So what? Why does that even matter? It isn't advertised as a cure for depression...

[Communist Xomaniax]

"Queer identity" wouldn't exist if LGBT types were never singled out from society in the first place. What it seems like is going on is a lot of the professionally outraged conservative sorts whining on that the folk they enthusiastically made an "other", in the process of seeking an identity, began to identify with the features they are specifically excluded for. Complaining that because the science moved on and they lost the culture war their systematic otherization no longer has a base to stand on.

The fact that this specific form of reactionary thought is itself being quickly otherized brings me no small amount of pleasure. Once again reactionaries impotently complain that they too are affected by the rules of the game they put in place.

[Migdal Bavel]

What a fucking weird metric to use. Lots of surgery can be covered by the NHS that isn't "necessary to live", such as hip replacement surgery, or skin graft surgery etc.

I mean... the fact that the NHS funds something doesn't mean they should fund it. It's quite possible he opposes those surgeries as well.

(Personally I'd be in favour of making trans people pay a portion of the cost for their transition, at least if trans person in question is over a certain income threshold.)

[Wielkavia]

What a fucking weird metric to use. Lots of surgery can be covered by the NHS that isn't "necessary to live", such as hip replacement surgery, or skin graft surgery etc.

I mean... the fact that the NHS funds something doesn't mean they should fund it. It's quite possible he opposes those surgeries as well.

(Personally I'd be in favour of making trans people pay a portion of the cost for their transition, at least if trans person in question is over a certain income threshold.)

Exactly. And hip replacements and skin grafts greatly improve quality of life while gender surgery does not.

[Migdal Bavel]

Um yes I did. I posted the Info table from it but here's the whole report. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

OK, I read the report...

Let's see:

Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003.

(That's the second of the two periods)
That suggests that the higher mortality of trans individuals may be on the decline, which itself suggests that it's not innate. It seems reasonable to assume that some change between the 1973-88 and 1989-2003 periods caused the higher mortality to lose statistical significance.
The same is true of suicide attempts:

In line with the increased mortality from suicide, sex-reassigned individuals were also at a higher risk for suicide attempts, though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003

and crime

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

The two obvious culprits for this change are either that SRS improved between 1973 and 2003, or that social attitudes improved.
In either case, that study provides no statistically significant evidence that trans people who have undergone surgery in the last three decades or so have been at higher risk of suicide.

Now, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... 16885.g001 suggests that (as the study shows, trans people sorta 'stabalise' when given surgery - their rate of mortality shadows that of the non-trans controls pretty closely for the first ten years. Given the much higher rates of suicide attempt amongst non-transitioning trans people in the same age-bracket, that would suggest that at the very least surgery provides a temporary respite, and although more research should be done (but probably can't be, because ethics ), would suggest that surgery probably does give the trans person a few extra QALYs.

[The New California Republic]

hip replacements and skin grafts greatly improve quality of life while gender surgery does not.

Source for that dubious claim please.