The Queer Identity

[Andsed]

How are atheists oppressed? Cause as an atheist myself I don’t think we are like at all.

Depending on your location, there's definitely still a highly negative opinion of atheists. In highly religious areas, coming out as atheist will get you kicked out of your home as quick as coming out as gay.
Here's a wiki article. Not read it myself.

Huh that sucks. I'm now much more appreciative of the fact the area I'm living in has no real problem with atheist.

[Senkaku]

This effectively my stance about LGBT+ people: You are equal to me, but your movement just sucks.

I can get that, like when the LGBT community tried the shit with adding a flag color for pedosexuality, claiming "the majority of thecommunity advocates for this" was utter horse shit. None of my lgbt friends liked this, nore of THEIR lgbt friends liked it, and so on and so forth. I believe that the elite in certian movements like this have agenda's that don't benefit the people they represent.

...did that actually happen? (Especially since the colors on the flag don't even stand for different orientations?)

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Seriously though, the LGBT+ movement (in the Western World) is becoming almost entirely useless because once the actually important issues get stamped out, they start delving into pedantic shit like how they want to be addressed as "xir" and have fifteen types of goddamn restrooms.

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

I'm almost entirely sure that we tried putting that on the table.

[Firaxin]

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

I'm almost entirely sure that we tried putting that on the table.

I've got a better solution, Transhumanism.

Don't need to debate restrooms when we don't need them.

[Alvecia]

I can get that, like when the LGBT community tried the shit with adding a flag color for pedosexuality, claiming "the majority of thecommunity advocates for this" was utter horse shit. None of my lgbt friends liked this, nore of THEIR lgbt friends liked it, and so on and so forth. I believe that the elite in certian movements like this have agenda's that don't benefit the people they represent.

...did that actually happen? (Especially since the colors on the flag don't even stand for different orientations?)

Adding another colour to the spectrum is a huge scientific discovery, if nothing else

[Migdal Bavel]

Adding another colour to the spectrum is a huge scientific discovery, if nothing else

Octarine!

[Des-Bal]

It is a horrible example to use, given that other forum users and the mods to boot have repeatedly got riled up about the two being conflated in the past.

It's a good example because they WERE conflated in the past. Watch Boys Beware. The poster was complaining that Queer was a slur because it identified you as not being normal and prefaced the statement by saying they were gay. I pointed out that Gay used to suggest something worse.

Although someone did indeed say that object sexuality fit into LGBT, at no point has anyone other than you included anything that involved harm to another. So I'd say that the move from 'weird but noone is hurt' to 'someone is absolutely getting hurt' is a pretty big slope to navigate.

That's not a leap, it's a line. It's also exactly what I've been looking for. If the factor deciding whether something is a sexuality is just "whether someone is getting hurt" doesn't it seem more like social policy than something innate?

[Senkaku]

You forgot this little gem:

You understand the point of that statement was "a word's past negative connotations don't need to effect our present days judgements" not "Gay people have sex with children" right?

You're equating being into weird things with being into hurting other beings, whether they be children or animals or whatever shitty false equivalency you're pretending you "just want to figure out where the line is" on.

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

I'm almost entirely sure that we tried putting that on the table.

I mean, I'm fairly certain that 1) this is not something that can be effectively policed, and 2) I'm pretty sure this would just lead to a trans person who otherwise presents as the gender they identify as but hasn't had genital reassignment surgery getting beaten up.

[Liriena]

That's the wrong stance, but you have the right to hold onto it :3

Seriously though, the LGBT+ movement (in the Western World) is becoming almost entirely useless because once the actually important issues get stamped out, they start delving into pedantic shit like how they want to be addressed as "xir" and have fifteen types of goddamn restrooms.

Based on those examples you provided, it looks to me like you probably get your info on the LGBT+ movement from shitty anti-LGBT+ second-hand sources.

Last I checked, what the LGBT+ movement in the Western world is mostly focused on right now is expanding anti-discrimination protections (friendly reminder that the United States has none on the federal level) and stuff like addressing the disproportionate violence against trans people as well as LGBT+ homelessness in general.

Come on, put some effort into your lazy contrarianism. Who said that "they want to be addressed as 'xir"? Who asked for "fifteen types of goddamn restrooms"?

[Trivolia]

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

I'm almost entirely sure that we tried putting that on the table.

There should be NO legal insentive against it, forget the fucking table, force it down americas throat and focus on real problems

[Liriena]

"It's not a slippery slope... but we're rolling down the hill from gay stuff to child molestation!!!!!!!!!!"

We didn't roll, we climbed, slowly but surely down the face of good taste.

"Good taste" is a spook.

I frankly thought we could find common ground on "fucking ceiling fans doesn't make you LGBT" but we didn't. Pedophilia is LITERALLY the last place we can agree something isn't a sexuality and I desperately want to know why the line is there so we can work it back to a more sensible place.

We get it: you are freaked out by stuff that challenges the worldview you take for granted and want LGBT+ people to bend over backwards to spare your feelings. That ain't happening.

[Democratic Empire of Romania]

I'm not talking about the LGBT community who wants to be left alone, I refer to those who appear out of nowhere telling everyone they opressed, more opressed than even atheists.

How are atheists oppressed? Cause as an atheist myself I don’t think we are like at all.

In most of the countries. You got lucky. I didn't, there are classmates who call me a thief and a criminal.

[Liriena]

Seriously though, the LGBT+ movement (in the Western World) is becoming almost entirely useless because once the actually important issues get stamped out, they start delving into pedantic shit like how they want to be addressed as "xir" and have fifteen types of goddamn restrooms.

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

Utterly unenforceable without committing gross violations of people's privacy.

I swear, transphobic nonsense borders on self-parody with how little genuine thought is put into it.

[Migdal Bavel]

That's not a leap, it's a line. It's also exactly what I've been looking for. If the factor deciding whether something is a sexuality is just "whether someone is getting hurt" doesn't it seem more like social policy than something innate?

I mean... yes? The LGBT+ movement is a political/social movement rather than an objective facet of reality, so whether something is included is indeed a social decision.
I'd say that there's also an objective distinction between 'actions which harm others', and 'actions which do not harm others', though. There are moral arguments that can be made for allowing rights related to LGBT+ identities, which cannot be used for pedophiles, simply because they rely on the idea of consent, and the idea that noone is being hurt other than the person themselves.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Seriously though, the LGBT+ movement (in the Western World) is becoming almost entirely useless because once the actually important issues get stamped out, they start delving into pedantic shit like how they want to be addressed as "xir" and have fifteen types of goddamn restrooms.

Based on those examples you provided, it looks to me like you probably get your info on the LGBT+ movement from shitty anti-LGBT+ second-hand sources.

Last I checked, what the LGBT+ movement in the Western world is mostly focused on right now is expanding anti-discrimination protections (friendly reminder that the United States has none on the federal level) and stuff like addressing the disproportionate violence against trans people as well as LGBT+ homelessness in general.

Come on, put some effort into your lazy contrarianism. Who said that "they want to be addressed as 'xir"? Who asked for "fifteen types of goddamn restrooms"?

And what exactly is the "expansion of anti-discrimination protections"?

Because there is very much a difference between fighting for not being fired from your job because of your sexual orientation and then crucifying somebody because they said some meanie words.

[Des-Bal]

You're equating being into weird things with being into hurting other beings, whether they be children or animals or whatever shitty false equivalency you're pretending you "just want to figure out where the line is" on.

I mean, I'm fairly certain that 1) this is not something that can be effectively policed, and 2) I'm pretty sure this would just lead to a trans person who otherwise presents as the gender they identify as but hasn't had genital reassignment surgery getting beaten up.

No I'm not. I've been very clearly arguing that these things are NOT under the umbrella since I entered the thread. You saw two words in close proximity and now you're responding to imaginary arguments.

It could be policed exactly as easily as the opposite system and is no more likely to result in someone being beaten up.

[Trivolia]

Simple fix to the restroom situation.
Currently restrooms are assigned by gender, simply because before this new century there were no problems about it.
Simply define bathrooms by "sex", which in the scientific world is defined by your genitellia, not your self assigned "gender".

Utterly unenforceable without committing gross violations of people's privacy.

I swear, transphobic nonsense borders on self-parody with how little genuine thought is put into it.

Oh? I don't quite understand, could you elaborate?

[Liriena]

Based on those examples you provided, it looks to me like you probably get your info on the LGBT+ movement from shitty anti-LGBT+ second-hand sources.

Last I checked, what the LGBT+ movement in the Western world is mostly focused on right now is expanding anti-discrimination protections (friendly reminder that the United States has none on the federal level) and stuff like addressing the disproportionate violence against trans people as well as LGBT+ homelessness in general.

Come on, put some effort into your lazy contrarianism. Who said that "they want to be addressed as 'xir"? Who asked for "fifteen types of goddamn restrooms"?

And what exactly is the "expansion of anti-discrimination protections"?

Not being fired for being LGBT+, not being refused housing or health care or any other service for being LGBT+, and maybe also protections against harassment.

Because there is very much a difference between fighting for not being fired from your job because of your sexual orientation and then crucifying somebody because they said some meanie words.

Let me guess... a Jordan Peterson fan?

[Des-Bal]

"Good taste" is a spook.

We get it: you are freaked out by stuff that challenges the worldview you take for granted and want LGBT+ people to bend over backwards to spare your feelings. That ain't happening.

Hi, I'm pro incest and necrophilia. My world view is "I don't fucking care." The point is that what constitutes identity or sexuality is apparently just someone saying so and then not hurting anyone.

I mean... yes? The LGBT+ movement is a political/social movement rather than an objective facet of reality, so whether something is included is indeed a social decision.
I'd say that there's also an objective distinction between 'actions which harm others', and 'actions which do not harm others', though. There are moral arguments that can be made for allowing rights related to LGBT+ identities, which cannot be used for pedophiles, simply because they rely on the idea of consent, and the idea that noone is being hurt other than the person themselves.

So sexuality is more like a club than anything else.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

And what exactly is the "expansion of anti-discrimination protections"?

Not being fired for being LGBT+, not being refused housing or health care or any other service for being LGBT+, and maybe also protections against harassment.

Because there is very much a difference between fighting for not being fired from your job because of your sexual orientation and then crucifying somebody because they said some meanie words.

Let me guess... a Jordan Peterson fan?

We already have all of those here in Canada, and now what are they fighting for?

[Liriena]

Utterly unenforceable without committing gross violations of people's privacy.

I swear, transphobic nonsense borders on self-parody with how little genuine thought is put into it.

Oh? I don't quite understand, could you elaborate?

If you segregate restrooms based on genitalia, you're going to have to check every person's genitalia before they enter a restroom. That's the only way you could enforce this shit... and even then, you would still fail to keep many trans people from entering the restroom of their preference because, and this is gonna shock you, gender confirmation surgery generally includes genital surgery.

So... yeah. What you proposed is the epitome of cis nonsense.

[Migdal Bavel]

No I'm not. I've been very clearly arguing that these things are NOT under the umbrella since I entered the thread. You saw two words in close proximity and now you're responding to imaginary arguments.

Actually, when you first introduced object sexuality, it was in the context of it not existing at all, not merely not being under the LGBT+ umbrella:

That depends entirely on whether they're claiming to be something I've been persuaded exists. If someone said "I'm ceiling-fan-sexual" I'm absolutely asking for proof that's a thing and proof that what they're feeling isn't better described as something else.

You have also been claiming that asexuality doesn't exist, not that just doesn't fall under LGBT

In any case, 'LGBT+' is a social movement, not an objectively extant category of thing. What identities it supports is a decision, not something objective and unchanging.

[Liriena]

Not being fired for being LGBT+, not being refused housing or health care or any other service for being LGBT+, and maybe also protections against harassment.


Let me guess... a Jordan Peterson fan?

We already have all of those here in Canada, and now what are they fighting for?

I don't know. It's your country. Why don't you check with them? I'm sure that there are forums, websites, social media accounts that could give you some first-hand information on this.

[Des-Bal]

If you segregate restrooms based on genitalia, you're going to have to check every person's genitalia before they enter a restroom. That's the only way you could enforce this shit... and even then, you would still fail to keep many trans people from entering the restroom of their preference because, and this is gonna shock you, gender confirmation surgery generally includes genital surgery.

So... yeah. What you proposed is the epitome of cis nonsense.

That's absolutely fucking ridiculous. If you segregate by gender will you have to check every person's gender before they enter a restroom?

[Liriena]

"Good taste" is a spook.

We get it: you are freaked out by stuff that challenges the worldview you take for granted and want LGBT+ people to bend over backwards to spare your feelings. That ain't happening.

Hi, I'm pro incest and necrophilia. My world view is "I don't fucking care." The point is that what constitutes identity or sexuality is apparently just someone saying so and then not hurting anyone.

Your argument, not mine.