How should we deal with North Korea?

[Vetelo]

North Korea is only a threat because of Western aggression towards it. NK and SK have been de-escalating as of lately, but the annual US military exercises continue. There's no way NK is gonna back down, especially with their nukes, as long as there's American troops south of their border. I think it's pretty reasonable to want to be able to defend yourself from a country that has had a history of messing with other countries. I don't think NK invading the south is a realistic thing, they just don't have the supplies or infrastructure to pull it off. Best way to deal with them is to de-escalate the entire situation by pulling troops out. SK has plenty of very well US-trained and equipped troops of their own.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

No, because the testimony from countless people doesn't exist, oh wait, yes they do.

The countless people who escaped from the Gulags that are definitely inescapable and then escaped from the country that shoots everyone who tries to escape and that no one can escape from and who definitely aren't being paid to lie or anything like that.

Live in your own universe if you want to.

[Eodor]

The countless people who escaped from the Gulags that are definitely inescapable and then escaped from the country that shoots everyone who tries to escape and that no one can escape from and who definitely aren't being paid to lie or anything like that.

Live in your own universe if you want to.

Comrade, it's our collective universe.

Seriously though, why was there no attempt to counter my point?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Live in your own universe if you want to.

Comrade, it's our collective universe.

Seriously though, why was there no attempt to counter my point?

Because I never said that escape was impossible. It's just difficult to escape when they kill or otherwise harshly punish people they catch trying to escape. Also, I no longer have any interest in slapping down BS taking points from a propagandist. Prove that survivors are being paid to lie, don't just spew it and act like you've won the argument.

[Erythrean Thebes]

North Korea is only a threat because of Western aggression towards it. NK and SK have been de-escalating as of lately, but the annual US military exercises continue. There's no way NK is gonna back down, especially with their nukes, as long as there's American troops south of their border. I think it's pretty reasonable to want to be able to defend yourself from a country that has had a history of messing with other countries. I don't think NK invading the south is a realistic thing, they just don't have the supplies or infrastructure to pull it off. Best way to deal with them is to de-escalate the entire situation by pulling troops out. SK has plenty of very well US-trained and equipped troops of their own.

That they don't want to invade the South might be true; that they couldn't succeed in conquering the South is probably false. Unfortunately, the NK army is large enough and has decent enough equipment that it could probably defeat the whole South Korean military without US support. Thing is NK does want to invade the South in principle, but won't for their own safety. That being said, there are scenarios other than US pressure where NK still might invade. Because remember, it's really Kim Jung-Un who calls that shot. He's not un-rational, as some claim. He's totally rational when you consider that he is actually separate from both the people and the government of his country - he is basically the leader of a cell that controls the military, which in turn controls the population. That's the real reason why he wants nuclear weapons - to complete the process whereby he personally will be safe against the threat of all his enemies: SK, China, the US, the NK military, the NK people. Complete deterrence. So, if it seems likely that the NK people or some in the military might slip from his control and rise up against him (remember, we know precious little about these dynamics inside NK, which ultimately control Kim himself) then it's possible, using a variety of logic, that Kim could make a break to attack SK or even Japan.

[Eodor]

Comrade, it's our collective universe.

Seriously though, why was there no attempt to counter my point?

Because I never said that escape was impossible. It's just difficult to escape when they kill or otherwise harshly punish people they catch trying to escape. Also, I no longer have any interest in slapping down BS taking points from a propagandist. Prove that survivors are being paid to lie, don't just spew it and act like you've won the argument.

I'm not acting like I won the argument. You just don't seem to understand that people can, and will, lie if it suits their ends. If you were offered millions to lie about a government you didn't like, would you do it?

[PR New England]

North Korea is only a threat because of Western aggression towards it. NK and SK have been de-escalating as of lately, but the annual US military exercises continue. There's no way NK is gonna back down, especially with their nukes, as long as there's American troops south of their border. I think it's pretty reasonable to want to be able to defend yourself from a country that has had a history of messing with other countries. I don't think NK invading the south is a realistic thing, they just don't have the supplies or infrastructure to pull it off. Best way to deal with them is to de-escalate the entire situation by pulling troops out. SK has plenty of very well US-trained and equipped troops of their own.

That they don't want to invade the South might be true; that they couldn't succeed in conquering the South is probably false. Unfortunately, the NK army is large enough and has decent enough equipment that it could probably defeat the whole South Korean military without US support. Thing is NK does want to invade the South in principle, but won't for their own safety. That being said, there are scenarios other than US pressure where NK still might invade. Because remember, it's really Kim Jung-Un who calls that shot. He's not un-rational, as some claim. He's totally rational when you consider that he is actually separate from both the people and the government of his country - he is basically the leader of a cell that controls the military, which in turn controls the population. That's the real reason why he wants nuclear weapons - to complete the process whereby he personally will be safe against the threat of all his enemies: SK, China, the US, the NK military, the NK people. Complete deterrence. So, if it seems likely that the NK people or some in the military might slip from his control and rise up against him (remember, we know precious little about these dynamics inside NK, which ultimately control Kim himself) then it's possible, using a variety of logic, that Kim could make a break to attack SK or even Japan.

I think that North Korea is a tool for China to distract the west with. We need to stop falling for their tricks, Trump did that when he met with KJU to discuss denuclearization.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I think that North Korea is a tool for China to distract the west with. We need to stop falling for their tricks, Trump did that when he met with KJU to discuss denuclearization.

You seem to support North Korea. Do you?

[PR New England]

I think that North Korea is a tool for China to distract the west with. We need to stop falling for their tricks, Trump did that when he met with KJU to discuss denuclearization.

You seem to support North Korea. Do you?

That was a joke.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Because I never said that escape was impossible. It's just difficult to escape when they kill or otherwise harshly punish people they catch trying to escape. Also, I no longer have any interest in slapping down BS taking points from a propagandist. Prove that survivors are being paid to lie, don't just spew it and act like you've won the argument.

I'm not acting like I won the argument. You just don't seem to understand that people can, and will, lie if it suits their ends. If you were offered millions to lie about a government you didn't like, would you do it?

No, I wouldn't, but some people would. Now prove to me that NK defectors had millions transferred into their bank accounts, before you act like that's what happened.

Edit: Ok, maybe I would, but there's still no proof that that happened though.

[Trinadaed]

Might take a long time to figure out and research how, but we could manipulate the weather to send hurricanes over there, as China and Russia might think of it as a "natural distraction" and just send money. We could secretly repeat this process until they are tired of giving money

[Azurius]

The long-term survival and enrichment of his regime due to integration into the world economy.

Why would the world economy want or allow the long term survival or enrichment of his regime? The Kim families punitive treatment of their citizens is the reason they're isolated in the first place, the arms race came later.

By that logic, you should embargo/punitively treat half the world and most of Africa and Southamerica.

The arms race came later? North Korea didn´t even exist long after the Redscare and the Cold War were in full action for decades already.

[Azurius]

Would should we do? Nothing at all. They’re a sovereign nation so the only thing we should doing is lifting the sanctions. As it is quite obvious the tactic of getting the people to revolt against the government through starvation isn’t working at all. So, let’s just improve trade and diplomatic relations instead of pointless ideological feuds.

It actualy does the opposite as it gives the Kim´s literal propaganda ammo to use.

[Azurius]

We should look at cutting a deal with China.

If China helps with the ending the North Korean regime China gets the following after Korea is reunited under the ROK.

China can have North Hamgyong and Rason. This would be a major benefit to China as it would give China a port on the Sea of Japan.
The US will withdraw all ground forces from Korea, and only keep a limited naval and an air support facility in the Pusan area, with no permanent forces deployed. I am even willing to agree to a neutral Korea with no US bases at all, if Korea supports it and their security guaranteed.

So China would have no need to worry about US forces at the Chinese border. The US would only hold exercises with the South in the Pusan region. The rest of the country we be off limits, by treaty to foreign forces.

This would strengthen, not harm China’s strategic position.

If China says no we:
Sanction the hell out of them.

Drop the one China thing.
China needs to be called out on its hypocrisy that there can only be “one China” but that there must be two Koreas.

Return nuclear weapons to our forces in the South and create a nuclear sharing agreement with the South (if the South agrees).

In the alternate North Korea can stop being an odious troll, give up its illegal nuclear, chemical and biological weapons (with verification), stop launching intermittent attacks on the South, agree to the withdrawal of heavy forces from the border region (by all sides including the US) and sign a nonaggression treaty with the South. Then their regime can still hang around and the sanctions can be dropped.

Though we still drop the “One China” thing in this scenario.

Yeah... That sort of tactic is gonna immidiately result in a nukes flying towards China and America and/or an NK Isis. Doesn´t sound like a good plan to me.

1: Trollimg? So, America can decide who owns nukes and who doesn´t? Talk about policing the world. That sounds more like being a literal troll to me.

2: What attacks on the south? I find none beyond Trumps imagination and wet dreams.

3: If you want NK to destroy their WMD´s why doesn´t America start with their madman excess of them?

As if NK would sign something like this, especially after how America breached an already signed treaty in the 90s.

All this de-nuclearization and isolation could have been long done with in the 90s already if America kept their word and Bush hadn´t completely fucked up Clintons efforts.

[Azurius]

Get a network of information going between the people of NK and the rest of the world, convince the people of NK to revolt, and help the revolt when it happens, so as to prevent as many deaths as possible.

With what? Cold war style propaganda? You really think the Northkoreans are gonna listen to this claptrap nonsense? They haven´t until this day and they won´t.

You cannot stop propaganda from 1 side with propanda from another. The cold war should have taught us that by now.

[Azurius]

Why would the world economy want or allow the long term survival or enrichment of his regime? The Kim families punitive treatment of their citizens is the reason they're isolated in the first place, the arms race came later.

There's a regime that killed more people than Hitler and the Nazis, and which continues to oppress religious and ethnic minorities, going so far as to segregating some of them into reeducation camps against their will. That regime is in command of China, the largest national economy by purchasing power parity (PPP). Money talks, and the world largely ignores the crimes of the Chinese Communist Party. They will also ignore Kim if he joins the global economy and contributes to global prosperity.

And there´s a country that killed more then all fascist and communist nations together called America, so what? Should we punish and embargo America now? Might be a good idea tbh.

[Azurius]

The countless people who escaped from the Gulags that are definitely inescapable and then escaped from the country that shoots everyone who tries to escape and that no one can escape from and who definitely aren't being paid to lie or anything like that.

Live in your own universe if you want to.

Defectors also claimed Iraq had weapons, én masse reports too. We all know how true those were don´t we?

[Azurius]

North Korea is only a threat because of Western aggression towards it. NK and SK have been de-escalating as of lately, but the annual US military exercises continue. There's no way NK is gonna back down, especially with their nukes, as long as there's American troops south of their border. I think it's pretty reasonable to want to be able to defend yourself from a country that has had a history of messing with other countries. I don't think NK invading the south is a realistic thing, they just don't have the supplies or infrastructure to pull it off. Best way to deal with them is to de-escalate the entire situation by pulling troops out. SK has plenty of very well US-trained and equipped troops of their own.

Thing is NK does want to invade the South in principle, but won't for their own safety.

Given their history of never attacking another country(except for retaliation, see the Korean War) I doubt that statement. And given the history of America invasion lust the probable aggressor in case of a conflict is clear, it most likely won´t be NK.

[Novus America]

There's a regime that killed more people than Hitler and the Nazis, and which continues to oppress religious and ethnic minorities, going so far as to segregating some of them into reeducation camps against their will. That regime is in command of China, the largest national economy by purchasing power parity (PPP). Money talks, and the world largely ignores the crimes of the Chinese Communist Party. They will also ignore Kim if he joins the global economy and contributes to global prosperity.

And there´s a country that killed more then all fascist and communist nations together called America, so what? Should we punish and embargo America now? Might be a good idea tbh.

Umm you definitely need to provide a citation for that.

[Dark Socialism]

Leave them alone

[Novus America]

Get a network of information going between the people of NK and the rest of the world, convince the people of NK to revolt, and help the revolt when it happens, so as to prevent as many deaths as possible.

With what? Cold war style propaganda? You really think the Northkoreans are gonna listen to this claptrap nonsense? They haven´t until this day and they won´t.

You cannot stop propaganda from 1 side with propanda from another. The cold war should have taught us that by now.

Umm actually, we kind of won the whole Cold War you see. Information warfare played a part in our success. It can be quite effective.

[Novus America]

Thing is NK does want to invade the South in principle, but won't for their own safety.

Given their history of never attacking another country(except for retaliation, see the Korean War) I doubt that statement. And given the history of America invasion lust the probable aggressor in case of a conflict is clear, it most likely won´t be NK.

Umm North Korea started the war...

[Saralonia]

Actually if you quit the sanctions at North Korea probably will happen what Happened in Cuba when UN quit their sanctions they needed to import things and they are going in a evolution progress in a more capitalist society and this could happen in North Korea because they are starving and needs resources and because of that at some point they will collapse or the peace talk will end in a Korean unification

[Novus America]

We should look at cutting a deal with China.

If China helps with the ending the North Korean regime China gets the following after Korea is reunited under the ROK.

China can have North Hamgyong and Rason. This would be a major benefit to China as it would give China a port on the Sea of Japan.
The US will withdraw all ground forces from Korea, and only keep a limited naval and an air support facility in the Pusan area, with no permanent forces deployed. I am even willing to agree to a neutral Korea with no US bases at all, if Korea supports it and their security guaranteed.

So China would have no need to worry about US forces at the Chinese border. The US would only hold exercises with the South in the Pusan region. The rest of the country we be off limits, by treaty to foreign forces.

This would strengthen, not harm China’s strategic position.

If China says no we:
Sanction the hell out of them.

Drop the one China thing.
China needs to be called out on its hypocrisy that there can only be “one China” but that there must be two Koreas.

Return nuclear weapons to our forces in the South and create a nuclear sharing agreement with the South (if the South agrees).

In the alternate North Korea can stop being an odious troll, give up its illegal nuclear, chemical and biological weapons (with verification), stop launching intermittent attacks on the South, agree to the withdrawal of heavy forces from the border region (by all sides including the US) and sign a nonaggression treaty with the South. Then their regime can still hang around and the sanctions can be dropped.

Though we still drop the “One China” thing in this scenario.

Yeah... That sort of tactic is gonna immidiately result in a nukes flying towards China and America and/or an NK Isis. Doesn´t sound like a good plan to me.

1: Trollimg? So, America can decide who owns nukes and who doesn´t? Talk about policing the world. That sounds more like being a literal troll to me.

2: What attacks on the south? I find none beyond Trumps imagination and wet dreams.

3: If you want NK to destroy their WMD´s why doesn´t America start with their madman excess of them?

As if NK would sign something like this, especially after how America breached an already signed treaty in the 90s.

All this de-nuclearization and isolation could have been long done with in the 90s already if America kept their word and Bush hadn´t completely fucked up Clintons efforts.

I never said launch an invasion. China could simply stop propping up the regime and let it fall from the inside.

The US alone does not decide, but the vast majority of the global community has decided that only having certain countries get them is international law.
Maybe it is not “fair”, but it has worked so far.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombard ... Yeonpyeong

There was no treaty. The Agreed Framework was not a treaty and it failed when we had evidence North Korea was violating it and North Korea refused to let us verify it.

And we have never launched an unprovoked attack on North Korea,
and if we violate the proposed treaty North Korea presumably would to.

But if they will not negotiate okay, fine. But the sanctions stay then forever.
If North Korea wants the sanctions lifted it has to give us something in return.

[Novus America]

Actually if you quit the sanctions at North Korea probably will happen what Happened in Cuba when UN quit their sanctions they needed to import things and they are going in a evolution progress in a more capitalist society and this could happen in North Korea because they are starving and needs resources and because of that at some point they will collapse or the peace talk will end in a Korean unification

Making an adversary wealthier only makes it more dangerous.
We should not make the same mistake we did with China.