Russian seizure of Ukranian Warships

[Equalsun Empire]

I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.

This is at odds with the video footage from the Russian ships, however, which appear to have intentionally crashed into the Ukrainian vessels even after they've stopped. Sauce

Edit: Yeah, basically what Doom just said.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Tbh, the whole Crimea thing (and indeed all of the post-Soviet territorial disputes) revolve around the issue of the ASSR's, so it's really kind of necessary to know about them before people rush into condemnation of one side. The issues of sovereignty aren't as clear cut in the Soviet system as they are in the ordinary system, because there are constituent parts of many of the former SSR's that once had the ability to appeal to Moscow for protection, and still sometimes see that as their right.

[Risottia]

Also those exercises were 13 years ago.

Because in 13 years subs won't have increased their potential. Of course not.

[Luhanskaya]

It aired today on Channel 4 Kyiv.

Also was not trying to say Russia did the right thing or were justified, just simply state the info currently available.

[Semparia]

What sources do you get this from? With Russian news agencies its good to be cynical, no offense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46356111

Of course it doesn’t make it legitimate, statements made under duress with a Kalashnikov pointed at your head are hardly compelling evidence.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust the word from the sailor captured by the Russians. If we got some decent recordings of what happened during the incident sure, but otherwise its sketchy to say the least, since its the Russian government and captured sailors that we have to take the word of.

[Tarsonis]

Also those exercises were 13 years ago.

Because in 13 years subs won't have increased their potential. Of course not.

And we won't have also increased our potential.



Nice dodging the other points there. *tip o the hat*

[Equalsun Empire]

It aired today on Channel 4 Kyiv.

Also was not trying to say Russia did the right thing or were justified, just simply state the info currently available.

Yes, understood- we're not disputing that you think Russia did the right thing, we're just kind of wary to accept facts from the Russian state media. They're not exactly an unbiased source.

[Tarsonis]

You're absolutely right, for some reason I'm confusing the annexation of Czechoslovakia with the invasion of Poland.

Yeah, a very different scenario. In the case of Czechoslovakia Germany violated a treaty (We negotiated to give them the Sudetenland in return for not invading all of Czechlovakia), but didn't do anything about it. But my point about nukes still stands, a conventional war is vastly different from a nuclear one. While we shouldn't just hand Eastern Europe to Russia, we have to tread carefully instead of just going full "OORAH"

In my edit, I challenged that point. It doesn't matter that Russia has Nukes, the situation is still the same. If Russia is allowed to move with impunity, they will do so until they're challenged and pushed back. So the question is do we challenge them now? Or later?

[Semparia]

Yeah, a very different scenario. In the case of Czechoslovakia Germany violated a treaty (We negotiated to give them the Sudetenland in return for not invading all of Czechlovakia), but didn't do anything about it. But my point about nukes still stands, a conventional war is vastly different from a nuclear one. While we shouldn't just hand Eastern Europe to Russia, we have to tread carefully instead of just going full "OORAH"

In my edit, I challenged that point. It doesn't matter that Russia has Nukes, the situation is still the same. If Russia is allowed to move with impunity, they will do so until they're challenged and pushed back. So the question is do we challenge them now? Or later?

I think in this scenario we support Ukraine, we assist with training and arming their troops, and help deal with Russian backed rebels. This way it frees up troops for issues like Crimea, etc. and allows them do deal with internal issues as well. Russia wouldn't risk directly messing with Ukraine, it's too close to the EU and NATO for that.

[Tarsonis]

In my edit, I challenged that point. It doesn't matter that Russia has Nukes, the situation is still the same. If Russia is allowed to move with impunity, they will do so until they're challenged and pushed back. So the question is do we challenge them now? Or later?

I think in this scenario we support Ukraine, we assist with training, arming, and dealing with Russian backed rebels. This way it frees up troops for issues like Crimea, etc. and allows them do deal with internal issues as well. Russia wouldn't risk directly messing with Ukraine, it's too close to the EU and NATO for that.

....they just did.

[Semparia]

I think in this scenario we support Ukraine, we assist with training, arming, and dealing with Russian backed rebels. This way it frees up troops for issues like Crimea, etc. and allows them do deal with internal issues as well. Russia wouldn't risk directly messing with Ukraine, it's too close to the EU and NATO for that.

....they just did.

Thats because we aren't really supporting Ukraine. Sure, we are training a few troops, but if Ukraine had freed up troops to protect against actions like this, Russia wouldn't risk a military engagement.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It would also be good to point out that this wouldn't be an issue if the government had followed Kennan's advice and given the FSU a Marshall Plan in the 1990's. Even the guy who came up with containment of the Soviet Union said that the post-Cold War policy towards Russia was antagonistic.

[Equalsun Empire]

To quote a friend:

Seeing how Russia is actively pumping Don Cossacks into Donetsk and Luhansk right now
I think we should accidentally put 500,000 NATO men on the Russian border in Ukraine

While I don't agree with the substance of the argument, I do agree with the premise. Perhaps declare a "peacekeeping mission" to help Ukraine deal with all the surprise rebellions? Regardless with how they go about it, I hope NATO/the EU react strongly in order to show that the shenanigans stop here. Just because a country has nukes doesn't mean they're prepared to use them as soon as they're not allowed to annex their neighbours.

[United Muscovite Nations]

To quote a friend:

Seeing how Russia is actively pumping Don Cossacks into Donetsk and Luhansk right now
I think we should accidentally put 500,000 NATO men on the Russian border in Ukraine

While I don't agree with the substance of the argument, I do agree with the premise. Perhaps declare a "peacekeeping mission" to help Ukraine deal with all the surprise rebellions? Regardless with how they go about it, I hope NATO/the EU react strongly in order to show that the shenanigans stop here. Just because a country has nukes doesn't mean they're prepared to use them as soon as they're not allowed to annex their neighbours.

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

[Semparia]

To quote a friend:

While I don't agree with the substance of the argument, I do agree with the premise. Perhaps declare a "peacekeeping mission" to help Ukraine deal with all the surprise rebellions? Regardless with how they go about it, I hope NATO/the EU react strongly in order to show that the shenanigans stop here. Just because a country has nukes doesn't mean they're prepared to use them as soon as they're not allowed to annex their neighbours.

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

That makes sense, they started a military conflict in order to halt a country from joining a military based alliance, which they now need help from.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

That makes sense, they started a military conflict in order to halt a country from joining a military based alliance, which they now need help from.

Is that sarcasm?

[Tarsonis]

To quote a friend:

While I don't agree with the substance of the argument, I do agree with the premise. Perhaps declare a "peacekeeping mission" to help Ukraine deal with all the surprise rebellions? Regardless with how they go about it, I hope NATO/the EU react strongly in order to show that the shenanigans stop here. Just because a country has nukes doesn't mean they're prepared to use them as soon as they're not allowed to annex their neighbours.

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

Ukraine: can I join so Russia doesn’t invade me?
NATO: perhaps....
Russia: why you join NATO Ukraine? *invades*

[Semparia]

That makes sense, they started a military conflict in order to halt a country from joining a military based alliance, which they now need help from.

Is that sarcasm?

Yes, its sarcasm. Seriously, that doesn't make much sense. Even with actions like this Ukraine has even more of an incentive to join NATO, since it acts as a deterrent for Russia.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

Ukraine: can I join so Russia doesn’t invade me?
NATO: perhaps....
Russia: why you join NATO Ukraine? *invades*

That's such an elementary understanding of the history that I'm honestly disappointed. Russia views NATO as an alliance which exists primarily to isolate it and destroy it. Thus, it views it as an existential threat. It was NATO, not Russia, that acted as if the Cold War didn't end. The Russian mistake was that they trusted NATO to keep its word towards Russia enough to let their military power be destroyed.

[Novus America]

To quote a friend:

While I don't agree with the substance of the argument, I do agree with the premise. Perhaps declare a "peacekeeping mission" to help Ukraine deal with all the surprise rebellions? Regardless with how they go about it, I hope NATO/the EU react strongly in order to show that the shenanigans stop here. Just because a country has nukes doesn't mean they're prepared to use them as soon as they're not allowed to annex their neighbours.

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

If that is true Putin is stupid. Russia’s actions are only driving Ukraine (also Sweden and Finland) closer to NATO and farther from Russia!

If Russia is worried about the Russia should seek to make Ukraine a friend, not an enemy.
To convince Ukraine neutrality or alliance with Russia is good for Ukraine.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Is that sarcasm?

Yes, its sarcasm. Seriously, that doesn't make much sense. Even with actions like this Ukraine has even more of an incentive to join NATO, since it acts as a deterrent for Russia.

Ukraine can't join NATO if it has a territorial dispute.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

If that is true Putin is stupid. Russia’s actions are only driving Ukraine (also Sweden and Finland) closer to NATO and farther from Russia!

If Russia is worried about the Russia should seek to make Ukraine a friend, not an enemy.
To convince Ukraine neutrality or alliance with Russia is good for Ukraine.

Ukraine was a friend until the coup (and it was a coup) in 2014.

[Painisia]

Well, I think Russians have it in their blood to espouse a vision of grandeur and dominance. Boris Yeltsin made Russia into a laughter stock, so Putin (for the Russians) made Russia into a more tough and serious nation trying to boss up. Now, the only thing they need in case of a military escalation is China....... if they are motivated to join so

[Holy Tedalonia]

That would just make things worse. The reason Russia is acting "aggressively" is because they are afraid of NATO troops on their border. Russia only started the conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, putting more NATO troops on Russia's border will mean war.

Ukraine: can I join so Russia doesn’t invade me?
NATO: perhaps....
Russia: why you join NATO Ukraine? *invades*

NATO’s original purpose may be gone, but I think Russia is just doing a power grab, since they would lose the ability to exert control or steal territory when Ukraine does enter the NATO alliance.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Well, I think Russians have it in their blood to espouse a vision of grandeur and dominance. Boris Yeltsin made Russia into a laughter stock, so Putin (for the Russians) made Russia into a more tough and serious nation trying to boss up. Now, the only thing they need in case of a military escalation is China....... if they are motivated to join so

So you think Russians make their foreign policy based on your racialist views of what is in "Russian blood"?

And Yeltsin didn't make Russia just a laughing stock, he destroyed their ability to defend their interests around the world, and Putin's Russia is just reasserting that the current world order is one that is harmful to Russia.