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Russian seizure of Ukranian Warships

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Sicaris
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Postby Sicaris » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:58 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I like the part where people think the US/NATO/EU/UN/[ insert acronym here ] can actually do anything about this.

The fact of the matter is Ukraine is not worth risking nuclear annihilation and world war. It's a cruel fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. All we can hope for is that the Russians prove to be benevolent overlords when they inevitably conquer Ukraine because I can guarantee you I for one wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years/decades they had to come up with a new world map because one of the countries on the current one was absorbed by it's neighbor. The truth is Russia will get away with this because they can. Nukes were a gamechanger, but only for those who had them. Everybody else is just fucked.


Russia mean! That means we should kill millions, if not billions of people because RUSSIA BAD11!!!1!1!!!
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:59 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I like the part where people think the US/NATO/EU/UN/[ insert acronym here ] can actually do anything about this.

The fact of the matter is Ukraine is not worth risking nuclear annihilation and world war. It's a cruel fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. All we can hope for is that the Russians prove to be benevolent overlords when they inevitably conquer Ukraine because I can guarantee you I for one wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years/decades they had to come up with a new world map because one of the countries on the current one was absorbed by it's neighbor. The truth is Russia will get away with this because they can. Nukes were a gamechanger, but only for those who had them. Everybody else is just fucked.


Yeah I imagine that's what Chamberlin said about Poland.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:00 am

Vassenor wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.


I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

All territory is Russian territory.
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PR New England
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Postby PR New England » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:00 am

Vassenor wrote:
PR New England wrote:Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.


You mean the attacks on Syria provided with enough forewarning to allow men and materiel to be moved out of range, thus effectively wasting ordnance to no actual benefit?

Remember that time when US mercenaries killed 50 Russian soldiers in Syria?

I swear, Trump could be starting up the nukes to blow Russia to smithereens and you would be complaining that it was a "distraction from Mueller".
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:02 am

PR New England wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
You mean the attacks on Syria provided with enough forewarning to allow men and materiel to be moved out of range, thus effectively wasting ordnance to no actual benefit?

Remember that time when US mercenaries killed 50 Russian soldiers in Syria?

I swear, Trump could be starting up the nukes to blow Russia to smithereens and you would be complaining that it was a "distraction from Mueller".


That's interesting, because if you read what happened it sure seems a whole lot like the Syrians struck first.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:05 am

Panslavicland wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:


Even IF Ukraine was actually the aggressor here, that's not how this works.


It seems to be working this way so far.

Vassenor wrote:
I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.


Ukraine wasn't aware either, but they've been made aware now.


I'm fairly certain trying uniformed troops of another nation, for the actions of their government (I.e ordering them to go to X destination) isn't legal by any international standard.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:06 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I like the part where people think the US/NATO/EU/UN/[ insert acronym here ] can actually do anything about this.

The fact of the matter is Ukraine is not worth risking nuclear annihilation and world war. It's a cruel fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. All we can hope for is that the Russians prove to be benevolent overlords when they inevitably conquer Ukraine because I can guarantee you I for one wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years/decades they had to come up with a new world map because one of the countries on the current one was absorbed by it's neighbor. The truth is Russia will get away with this because they can. Nukes were a gamechanger, but only for those who had them. Everybody else is just fucked.


Yeah I imagine that's what Chamberlin said about Poland.


Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.
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Potato
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Postby Potato » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:10 am

Ifreann wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

All territory is Russian territory.

e x p a n d

russian potato will consume all
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PR New England
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Postby PR New England » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:12 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yeah I imagine that's what Chamberlin said about Poland.


Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.

Everything can be compared to one of three things according to the left.
1. Star Wars
2. Harry Potter
3. World War 2
May 30, 1981: Clashes between black and white nationalists have been broken up by Louisiana police. President Dave Treen says that though the protest has been broken up and leaders on both sides have been arrested, there is still an environment of ethnic strife in Louisiana.

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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:14 am

PR New England wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.

Everything can be compared to one of three things according to the left.
1. Star Wars
2. Harry Potter
3. World War 2

it's like when voldemort ate hitler's soul to become darth vader 2
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PR New England
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Postby PR New England » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:16 am

Proctopeo wrote:
PR New England wrote:Everything can be compared to one of three things according to the left.
1. Star Wars
2. Harry Potter
3. World War 2

it's like when voldemort ate hitler's soul to become darth vader 2

And all three of those men were gay rooskee blumpf, ebil dictator, and pudding in disguise.
May 30, 1981: Clashes between black and white nationalists have been broken up by Louisiana police. President Dave Treen says that though the protest has been broken up and leaders on both sides have been arrested, there is still an environment of ethnic strife in Louisiana.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:21 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yeah I imagine that's what Chamberlin said about Poland.


Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.


Yes well, if you're not willing to think I'll have to do your thinking for you.

It doesn't matter that Germany didn't have nukes. Chamberlin let the Germans take Poland, because it "wasn't worth fighting a war over."

When you let Russia do what it wants because it's not "worth a nuclear conflict over," then you give Russia license to do whatever the fuck it wants. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if nobody is going to do anything about their expansions because they don't want to risk a nuclear conflict? I mean, if Ukraine isn't worth it, then what is? Asia? Europe? The Eastern Hemisphere? Where's the red line?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:22 am

PR New England wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.

Everything can be compared to one of three things according to the left.
1. Star Wars
2. Harry Potter
3. World War 2


Hah, I think that's the first time someone accused me of being left on NSG. It also doesn't change the fact that it's an apt comparison. Appeasement never works. Churchill understood that.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. M.A.R. Yale Divinity School ‘18.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Semparia
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Postby Semparia » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:23 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Ah, yes, I forgot about the Third Reich's nuclear arsenal which allowed it to destroy entire countries in a matter of seconds.

Thank you for reminding me.


Yes well, if you're not willing to think I'll have to do your thinking for you.

It doesn't matter that Germany didn't have nukes. Chamberlin let the Germans take Poland, because it "wasn't worth fighting a war over."

When you let Russia do what it wants because it's not "worth a nuclear conflict over," then you give Russia license to do whatever the fuck it wants. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if nobody is going to do anything about their expansions because they don't want to risk a nuclear conflict? I mean, if Ukraine isn't worth it, then what is? Asia? Europe? The Eastern Hemisphere? Where's the red line?


Y-you realize that the UK and France declared war when Germany invaded Poland right? And a large scale conventional war is different from a large scale nuclear war, all life on earth would probably be wiped out within the span of a few hours, if not minutes.

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PR New England
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Postby PR New England » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:23 am

Tarsonis wrote:
PR New England wrote:Everything can be compared to one of three things according to the left.
1. Star Wars
2. Harry Potter
3. World War 2


Hah, I think that's the first time someone accused me of being left on NSG. It also doesn't change the fact that it's an apt comparison. Appeasement never works. Churchill understood that.

I didn't see that you posted the incredibly stupid thing. If you use a leftist talking point, you will be called a leftist.
Neocons are leftists too, by the way.
May 30, 1981: Clashes between black and white nationalists have been broken up by Louisiana police. President Dave Treen says that though the protest has been broken up and leaders on both sides have been arrested, there is still an environment of ethnic strife in Louisiana.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:26 am

PR New England wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Hah, I think that's the first time someone accused me of being left on NSG. It also doesn't change the fact that it's an apt comparison. Appeasement never works. Churchill understood that.

I didn't see that you posted the incredibly stupid thing.


:roll: Right, making analogies to similar historical situations and learning from the mistakes of the pasts is stupid. It's like this post was generated by autofill



If you use a leftist talking point, you will be called a leftist.
Neocons are leftists too, by the way.


.... so what's right wing to you?
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Luhanskaya
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Postby Luhanskaya » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:28 am

I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:30 am

Semparia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yes well, if you're not willing to think I'll have to do your thinking for you.

It doesn't matter that Germany didn't have nukes. Chamberlin let the Germans take Poland, because it "wasn't worth fighting a war over."

When you let Russia do what it wants because it's not "worth a nuclear conflict over," then you give Russia license to do whatever the fuck it wants. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if nobody is going to do anything about their expansions because they don't want to risk a nuclear conflict? I mean, if Ukraine isn't worth it, then what is? Asia? Europe? The Eastern Hemisphere? Where's the red line?


Y-you realize that the UK and France declared war when Germany invaded Poland right? And a large scale conventional war is different from a large scale nuclear war, all life on earth would probably be wiped out within the span of a few hours, if not minutes.


You're absolutely right, for some reason I'm confusing the annexation of Czechoslovakia with the invasion of Poland.


EDIT: But the point still stands that the difference doesn't matter. Russia has nukes, so what do you let them conquer the whole planet? It doesn't matter if its a long drawn out conventional war or quick nuclear war. You cannot allow unchecked encroachment upon sovereign territories. If you do, they will not stop until they're challenged. So the question is to you challenge them now? or later?
Last edited by Tarsonis on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. M.A.R. Yale Divinity School ‘18.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Semparia
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Postby Semparia » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:30 am

Luhanskaya wrote:I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.


What sources do you get this from? With Russian news agencies its good to be cynical, no offense.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:31 am

Luhanskaya wrote:I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.


So the Russian media says, anyway. Which is in no way an attempt to justify their actions retroactively.
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Tobleste
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Postby Tobleste » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:31 am

Vince Vaughn wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:
Yeah, let's give Ukraine to Russia. And Estonia. And Latvia. Oh and Belarus and Hungary, sure why not?


Ukraine and Belarus? Sure. I'm not starting World War III over some dumb inter-Slavic struggle.

Estonia, Latvia, and Hungary are Western and NATO powers, so no. Don't engage in hyperbole.


Preventing another country from invading a smaller neighbour isn't starting a war. The country that starts the invasion (Russia) is the one responsible for that.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:31 am

Luhanskaya wrote:I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.


Yes, I'm sure the vietcong are treating them well, and the yes the Americans are dirty imperialists they were ashamed to be apart of.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. M.A.R. Yale Divinity School ‘18.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Semparia
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Postby Semparia » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Semparia wrote:
Y-you realize that the UK and France declared war when Germany invaded Poland right? And a large scale conventional war is different from a large scale nuclear war, all life on earth would probably be wiped out within the span of a few hours, if not minutes.


You're absolutely right, for some reason I'm confusing the annexation of Czechoslovakia with the invasion of Poland.


Yeah, a very different scenario. In the case of Czechoslovakia Germany violated a treaty (We negotiated to give them the Sudetenland in return for not invading all of Czechlovakia), but didn't do anything about it. But my point about nukes still stands, a conventional war is vastly different from a nuclear one. While we shouldn't just hand Eastern Europe to Russia, we have to tread carefully instead of just going full "OORAH"

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Dooom35796821595
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 am

Semparia wrote:
Luhanskaya wrote:I'm not sure what is being shown on the news around all of you. But here we are shown today clips of apparent confession by the ships commander, who had repeatedly ignored transmissions sent to him by Russian navy to identify himself, and he proceeded towards the bridge while receiving requests to stop.

Not sure what is true, but no one has yet mentioned this on here from what I had seen.


What sources do you get this from? With Russian news agencies its good to be cynical, no offense.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46356111

Of course it doesn’t make it legitimate, statements made under duress with a Kalashnikov pointed at your head are hardly compelling evidence.
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Tobleste
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Postby Tobleste » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 am

Semparia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yes well, if you're not willing to think I'll have to do your thinking for you.

It doesn't matter that Germany didn't have nukes. Chamberlin let the Germans take Poland, because it "wasn't worth fighting a war over."

When you let Russia do what it wants because it's not "worth a nuclear conflict over," then you give Russia license to do whatever the fuck it wants. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if nobody is going to do anything about their expansions because they don't want to risk a nuclear conflict? I mean, if Ukraine isn't worth it, then what is? Asia? Europe? The Eastern Hemisphere? Where's the red line?


Y-you realize that the UK and France declared war when Germany invaded Poland right? And a large scale conventional war is different from a large scale nuclear war, all life on earth would probably be wiped out within the span of a few hours, if not minutes.


There's options between "Do nothing" and "Nuke Moscow".
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