Russian seizure of Ukranian Warships

[Oil exporting People]

It definitely can. The U.S. currently has only 20 Army BCTs rated as combat ready; it took 23 to do Iraq back in '03. Our European allies, meanwhile, have for example, been reduced to just four functioning fighters in the case of the Luftwaffe and have had to suspend rifle training in the case of the Dutch due to a lack of ammunition. This just the bare bones, meanwhile the Russians demonstrated last year they could successfully organize and carry out operations of up to 100,000 men. They've also taken the lead in certain sectors, especially artillery and AA defenses, as well as in the nuclear arena.

You realise that the core of NATO is America, right? Europe’s main job is to stop the Russians getting to France until the US shows up.

Hence why I started off with the Americans; the United States has nothing to send over.

[Novus Wrepland]

I have heard of these things multiple times. However the fact is that Russia only ended up worse off than three of their former colonies while the rest of them went through periods that were either just as bad or worse during the 90’s. Not only that but then Russia and its public decided to make things worse for them. The wealth that Russia made through commodities and economic reforms, carried out by people of whom half are now scapegoated liberals, I might add, isn’t of concern here.

I apologize, I may have lost your posts meaning through translation. I only meant to state why Russian people did generally support Putin. I did not mean to direct it in a way that it was Russia who had it worse than everyone else. I was just trying to provide first hand insight. Nor did I intend to imply Putin's a saint, as I said he had done many things wrong.

Aha, you didn’t say anything controversial. In fact my tone was on the strange side.

[Shofercia]

The locals are massively on Russia's side. Any foreign deployment is going to be destroyed very quickly.

Say it with me now: T O T A L W A R

You do realize that the Ukrainians are led by the equivalent of this guy, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA

(And I'm not referring to the Admiral)

Waaa, mah opponent is saying things I disagree with, waaa!

Crimea River!

It’s not that. It’s that you spout so much propaganda that telling you and the Kremlin line apart is pretty damn hard.

Also grow up.

Poster whining about being called out on personal attack against fellow poster tells said poster to grow up.

Considering that it took me all of five seconds to find on Google, I think you're just lazy

Or you just misunderstood what I’m saying plus I didn’t make the claim you did.
Basically I don’t trust the referendum the Russians had.

Let's recap:

Me: Russia's control is recognized my the extreme majority of Crimeans.
You: Press X for doubt
Me: provides neutral source and pro-US source proving my point

Then again, judging by your posts here, I can see how you're confused by that.

(Image)

https://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/20 ... e-deck.pdf

Slides 27 & 30

So Thermodolia, is there where you claim that Putin took over Gallup and Pew?

Come up with better bait. And two still not trusting the referendum.

Poster calling fellow poster shill complains about lack of good bait.

Not according to the locals.

The locals can shove it.

They can, but why should they?

Since when are you a hater of Direct Democracy, Thermodolia?

Since always. Hell I barely like democracy in the first place

Well this time Democracy's backed by nukes, so you'll just have to Crimea River!

I've always supported it. I opposed the First Chechen War, partly because of Direct Democracy in Ingushetia.

Well good for you

And I'll continue supporting Direct Democracy. Even if it hurts the Russian or the American Governments. Something about "No Taxation Without Representation!" You might want to look that up.

[Shofercia]

His posts are related to the thread.

No they weren't. He was whining about several different news stories and perceived media bias. 1 of his posts out of 4 was related to the subject matter of the thread. He was arguing around the subject, rather than about it...

He was pointing out that people should engage in debate, rather than attack fellow posters. Not sure how you missed that.

They have been at war for years, just not officially.

Wouldn't martial law put Ukraine on a de facto war footing? And wouldn't that allow Ukraine to step up its game in the east?

With an underpaid, poorly led, and demoralized armed forces?

Full support for Russia should be given. This is just another provocation of the Ukrainian fascists. I hope the people in the NATO countries realize that Putin only wants peace and protection for the Russian minority and the safety of Russian borders. NATO stands no chance against the Russian army, as EU and USA are weakened while Russia is united and strong. Ukraine should remeber it was Russians who liberated the country and fellow Ukrainians who worked with the Nazis, the same ideology now in government of Kiev.

The martial law is just an excuse to trample the rights of the people by criminal Poroshenko:

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201811261070145083-ukraine-martial-law/

This is Poroshenko's attempt to deflect from his completely inept economic policies, (just look at his approval rating,) and attempt to talk about war against Russia. All he'll get is the mighty armchair warriors to say mean thing about Russia online. It's ok though, his "Government" just defunded health services for insane asylums, but hey, placing crazy people on the street, while the population is impoverished - what could possibly go wrong?

http://www.stalkerzone.org/us-appointed ... tor-death/

A lot was done. “Dr. Death” purposefully disrupted the state procurement of drugs for the treatment of oncological and cardiovascular diseases. As is known, these diseases are the main causes of death of Ukrainians. It is no accident that the overseas volunteer dealt the strongest blow precisely to the system of their treatment. A huge outrage in Ukrainian society was sparked by Suprun’s idea to completely refuse treatment of cancer, focusing on prophylaxis. At the end of last year, anticancer drugs were partially admitted to clinics… but at the limit of their shelf life.

Concerning cardiovascular drugs, their purchase for 400 million hryvnias wasn’t conducted. As a reminder, this was one of the reasons for the claims of the Director of the Kiev Institute of Heart – Boris Todurov – to Suprun. This caused a huge public outcry and a scandal. Interestingly, the ersatz-Minister of Health was defended not so much by npublic figures, but by representatives of various humanitarian funds and financed-from-abroad public organizations. This is not surprising – Suprun herself comes from such structures and works, of course, in their interests.

What can be said about the decline in immunization coverage of children to 20% when the norm of the Ministry of Health is 95% (in 2007 – 96%), reducing the number of hospital beds, medical institutions and medical staff; about plans for the elimination of medical ambulances, simplified sending of donor organs from Ukraine abroad, foreign testing of medicines for Ukrainians, and other cannibalistic endeavors.

Guardian's Source: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/f ... pe-ukraine

Full support for Russia should be given. This is just another provocation of the Ukrainian fascists. I hope the people in the NATO countries realize that Putin only wants peace and protection for the Russian minority and the safety of Russian borders. NATO stands no chance against the Russian army, as EU and USA are weakened while Russia is united and strong. Ukraine should remeber it was Russians who liberated the country and fellow Ukrainians who worked with the Nazis, the same ideology now in government of Kiev.

The martial law is just an excuse to trample the rights of the people by criminal Poroshenko:

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201811261070145083-ukraine-martial-law/

NATO would demolish Russia in an actual war.

Unless nukes are used, and they would be. Also, most Europeans aren't going to start a nuclear war over Crimea.

Oh sure Russia has lots of good tanks but so does NATO. And the US alone spends more on its military than Russia and China combined. Also the US airforce is easily stronger than the Russian airforce and the US navy is the strongest in the world. And brining in the allies of the US further gives them an edge. Also Putin fighting for the pepole don’t make me laugh.

In a conventional war NATO has 4 times the population of Russia and some 18 times the GDP.
Texas has a bigger GDP than Russia.

Russia simply does not have the population or economic strength needed for a protracted war.
And in a nuclear war Russia still does not win even if no one really does.

Which is why Russia is pulling all this little green men, skullduggery shit.

If Russia actually thought a war would be to their advantage they would have already started one.

And Putin being a man of the people is hilarious. Sure many Western leaders are corrupt, but the West is far better than Russia on any corruption rating.

Put might not be a man of the people, or he might be, but while Putin was in office, the average Russian experienced superb economic growth. Said growth is continuing today, as is Putin's tenure.

[Shofercia]

Why would Russia do this now?

It is clearly a Ukrainian provocation:

1. Elections are approaching and the Ukrainian President would likely lose in the ballot box even after the opposition parties were banned ...which is saying something.

2. Poroshenko immediately declared martial law. So, Russians carry out a provocation on disputed territorial waters and the Ukrainian government imposes martial law on Ukrainians?... What?

Come on, this is obviously a Ukrainian orchestration for domestic reasons as have been the border incidents in recent months.

I don’t agree with your analysis but it seems to demonstrate how “””real”””ism is bunk.

That's not even remotely accurate.

For many “realism” means Russia.
There are plenty of actually realist, that is not based on morality or ethics but on pure self interest, reasons for opposing Russian actions.

That’s part of my point. Realism isn’t a real doctrine it’s just a dumb title people like to run around with. As if “do what’s in your interests” is actually saying anything in this context.

Realism is a real doctrine: http://politics.oxfordre.com/view/10.10 ... 8637-e-475

It will be interesting to see if Turkey reacts if this this escalates.

Turkey won't touch Russia so close to Thanksgiving

I think a American war against russia probably coin the phrase "savaged by johnny American" followed by "made moscow howl."

It'd be more of a "oh fuck, it's nuclear winter" type of war.

Damn, now Ukraine is in a state of emergency and nationalists are demonstrating everywhere. Vladimir Zhirinovsky will advocate a full-scale nuclear holocaust and tensions will rise between Ukraine and Russia, even though it has already been tense since 2014. Is there a big chance for NATO to get involved in this potential WW3-triggering conflict?

Unlike Ukraine, NATO is mature enough to ignore Zhirinovsky's trolling. I find his trolling to be hilarious, but it's most definitely, trolling.

Is there really a pissing contest going on about who would win a war between America and Russia? Everyone would lose, everyone would suffer. What else is there to say?

You forget Page, this is NSG. A penile measurement is a vital part of this thread, even if both countries have huge nuclear dicks.

Yes. Putin promotes peace. Noone from Europe or America should die for gangsters in Kiev.

"Provocations carried out by the Ukrainian navy in the Kerch Strait area were coordinated by two officers from the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) who were aboard the ships involved in the incident. The coordination of the provocation was carried out by two SBU officers, who were on board of Ukrainian ships."

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201811261070130968-russia-ukraine-kerch-strait/

Ukrainian warships entered the territorial waters of Russia on direct orders by the Kiev authorities, so why fight Poroshenkos war for him and even support the illegal Kiev regime?!

From Wikipedia:

Sputnik (Russian pronunciation: [ˈsputnʲɪk]; formerly The Voice of Russia and RIA Novosti) is a news agency, news website platform and radio broadcast service established by the Russian government-owned news agency Rossiya Segodnya.

Of course they'll say that Ukraine 'provoked them'.
It's a government-owned news station.

Ukrainian warships approach Crimean Bridge. Hmm, I wonder who started it...

[Farnhamia]

Actually Sharania isn’t a puppet as confirmed by the mods

IIRC they don’t have the right technology to be sure. Anecdotally I saw them leave and join at the same time once.

If not it’s probably Lyttenburgh for those of you old enough to remember when that unpleasant person posted here.

*** Warned for harassment. ***

You've lost a nation for exactly this sort of post. Stop it and stop it now. Your record across all your nations does come into play when we're deciding whether you contribute here or not.

[The Lone Alliance]

Well reddit is much faster than NS. Been discussing this topic there.
^~^
Really it's a pity what Russia is doing, but I don't believe outside of Ukraine there won't be any repercussions. Trump and NATO will do jack shit.

NATO is under no obligation to intervene right now anyway.

Technically we could have the first time under the term of the nuclear agreement.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

The trouble is Trump is weak and compromised when it comes to Russia.

[God-Born Devil-Dung]

I pray that the Tungusic fiends in the Kremlin are given retribution by the Ukrainians.

[PR New England]

The trouble is Trump is weak and compromised when it comes to Russia.

Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

I pray that the Tungusic fiends in the Kremlin are given retribution by the Ukrainians.

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.

[-Ocelot-]

The trouble is Trump is weak and compromised when it comes to Russia.

Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

I pray that the Tungusic fiends in the Kremlin are given retribution by the Ukrainians.

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.

That wasn't Trump himself, though. In fact, Trump seems pretty pissed about the integration of Montenegro into NATO (which Russia tried to stop).

See: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/27/a- ... -helsinki/

Trump has spoken against NATO in the past many times and he has made it obvious that he doesn't like it's existence. He is compromised, the question is how he ended up being a Russian asset.

[PR New England]

Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.

That wasn't Trump himself, though. In fact, Trump seems pretty pissed about the integration of Montenegro into NATO (which Russia tried to stop).

See: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/27/a- ... -helsinki/

Trump has spoken against NATO in the past many times and he has made it obvious that he doesn't like it's existence. He is compromised, the question is how he ended up being a Russian asset.

There are still three points to disprove.

[Ifreann]

"Tell me, Vanya, what did you get President Putin for Christmas?"
"Nothing, why? Did you get him something?"
*Ukrainian ships towed into dock*
"Oh yes, I think he will love my presents"

[Tarsonis]

Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.

That wasn't Trump himself, though. In fact, Trump seems pretty pissed about the integration of Montenegro into NATO (which Russia tried to stop).

See: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/27/a- ... -helsinki/

Trump has spoken against NATO in the past many times and he has made it obvious that he doesn't like it's existence. He is compromised, the question is how he ended up being a Russian asset.

More he doesn't like how much of the burden the US has to share. Currently the US contributes 1/5th of the operational budget of NATO, which isn't terrible compared to the other main players involved, but in terms of capability, the US is the chief bulwark of NATO with about as much manpower as the other nations combined, and a severe technological advantage over the rest of them. (US has 10 modern nuclear carriers with 4 on the way, while all of Nato has I think, 6 antiquated ones). It's not an inaccurate criticism to claim that NATO's main plan is to delay Russia until the US can mobilize.

However, there's perfectly legitimate reason as to why the numbers are the way they are, (Relative Population, GDP, etc)
Trumps view isn't so much dictated by Russia but his own incompetence. Essentially he's the only Giant on the playground complaining that everyone else is short.

[Tarsonis]

That wasn't Trump himself, though. In fact, Trump seems pretty pissed about the integration of Montenegro into NATO (which Russia tried to stop).

See: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/27/a- ... -helsinki/

Trump has spoken against NATO in the past many times and he has made it obvious that he doesn't like it's existence. He is compromised, the question is how he ended up being a Russian asset.

There are still three points to disprove.

Allegedly the gun deal was to buy them off so they stopped cooperating with the Mueller investigation.
Russia didn't have a monopoly on exports to begin with.
His attacks on Syria were carefully calculated to match his tone, without really pissing off or obstructing Russia's goals in the region. Though to be fair, at the time we had similar goals as Russia: the destruction of the Islamic State.

[Vassenor]

The trouble is Trump is weak and compromised when it comes to Russia.

Which is why he sent a bunch of guns to Ukraine, right?
Which is why he expanded NATO by inviting Montenegro, right?
Which is why he ended Russia's monopoly on European natural gas, right?
Which is why he attacked Syria twice, right?

I pray that the Tungusic fiends in the Kremlin are given retribution by the Ukrainians.

>Muh Asiatic hordes
That's racist.

You mean the attacks on Syria provided with enough forewarning to allow men and materiel to be moved out of range, thus effectively wasting ordnance to no actual benefit?

[Panslavicland]

The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.

[Tarsonis]

The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.

Even IF Ukraine was actually the aggressor here, that's not how this works.

[Novus Wrepland]

IIRC they don’t have the right technology to be sure. Anecdotally I saw them leave and join at the same time once.

If not it’s probably Lyttenburgh for those of you old enough to remember when that unpleasant person posted here.

*** Warned for harassment. ***

You've lost a nation for exactly this sort of post. Stop it and stop it now. Your record across all your nations does come into play when we're deciding whether you contribute here or not.

I am aware, thank you for the reminder.

[Senkaku]

Ukrainian warships approach Crimean Bridge. Hmm, I wonder who started it...

The 2003 treaty between Ukraine and Russia and the UN Law of the Sea mean it's perfectly legal for Ukrainian ships to transit the Kerch Strait, regardless of what the Russians may have built over it. Don't get it twisted.

[Vassenor]

The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.

I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

[Panslavicland]

The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.

Even IF Ukraine was actually the aggressor here, that's not how this works.

It seems to be working this way so far.

The captured ships should be sold for scrap, the sailors tried and imprisoned for deliberately invading Russian sovereign territory and the strait permanently closed to all traffic approaching or leaving Ukrainian ports.

I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

Ukraine wasn't aware either, but they've been made aware now.

[Dooom35796821595]

Even IF Ukraine was actually the aggressor here, that's not how this works.

It seems to be working this way so far.

I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

Ukraine wasn't aware either, but they've been made aware now.

No, it’s still not Russian territory.

[Vassenor]

Even IF Ukraine was actually the aggressor here, that's not how this works.

It seems to be working this way so far.

I wasn't aware the entirety of the Black Sea was Russian territory.

Ukraine wasn't aware either, but they've been made aware now.

I'm pretty sure all the other nations with coasts on the Black Sea would dispute that.

And yes, Russia did commit the first aggressive act when it deliberately blockaded the strait.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I like the part where people think the US/NATO/EU/UN/[ insert acronym here ] can actually do anything about this.

The fact of the matter is Ukraine is not worth risking nuclear annihilation and world war. It's a cruel fact, but it's a fact nonetheless. All we can hope for is that the Russians prove to be benevolent overlords when they inevitably conquer Ukraine because I can guarantee you I for one wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years/decades they had to come up with a new world map because one of the countries on the current one was absorbed by it's neighbor. The truth is Russia will get away with this because they can. Nukes were a gamechanger, but only for those who had them. Everybody else is just fucked.