Riots in France over fuel tax rises

[Olerand]

Declining life expectancy is the mark of a stable and healthy society. One that has reached a peak and started going down, before the competition. Naturally, downwards movement is as important as upwards movement, because constant upwards life expectancy isn't healthy. France, as it exists, is doing its best at emulating the Soviet Union or Russia, with its constant collapses due to uppity peasant thugs burning down the state, and subsequent failed attempts at reinvention, though. It will never emulate Denmark. That would require, as you say, a "culture of social compromise", or at least a culture that accepts that thuggish behavior isn't acceptable in public discourse. France will do neither.

Le Pen's Sixth Republic will probably start declining in life expectancy at some point anyway.



No one knows why French breed, though. It could be nationalism, it could be natalist policies, it could be neither. They barely hover around replacement (they're actually slightly, slightly below it, but close enough that increases in life expectancy will likely mask this trend for decades; no one divides populations into age cohorts or anything yet to show that, aside from the United States/France/Israel, the bulk of population growth in the 21st century OECD will be in old people living too long, not young people who work), so if they were doing something deliberate they would probably be slightly above replacement rate, to ensure a healthy demography perpetually. But they aren't.

OTOH, Israel has them substantially beaten, as even the smallest birth rates in Israel are ~2.3 TFR (for Ashkenazi urbanites; I think Palestinian settlers/colonizers have TFRs >3). Instead of looking to France, you need to look to Israel, TBH.

Israel is in a unique position though. Besieged by foes from every direction, in a status of war or quasi-war since the very foundation of their country. Birthrates are literally a survival matter for them.

Comparing France to Israel... As if we have the same impetus, or a Haredi community...

[Gallia-]

Declining life expectancy is the mark of a stable and healthy society. One that has reached a peak and started going down, before the competition. Naturally, downwards movement is as important as upwards movement, because constant upwards life expectancy isn't healthy. France, as it exists, is doing its best at emulating the Soviet Union or Russia, with its constant collapses due to uppity peasant thugs burning down the state, and subsequent failed attempts at reinvention, though. It will never emulate Denmark. That would require, as you say, a "culture of social compromise", or at least a culture that accepts that thuggish behavior isn't acceptable in public discourse. France will do neither.

Le Pen's Sixth Republic will probably start declining in life expectancy at some point anyway.

Yes, yes, your life expectancy, already the lowest in the developed world, is declining because you're so successful.

It means the USA will dodge the Alzheimer's epidemic that will probably institute the 7th Republic.

Just accept the fact that some people don't see it that way, and don't want that success.

Don't worry, I have, they're just wrong. The fact is that perpetual growth is neither good nor sustainable. At some point, you have to slow down, stop, and drop a bit, to maintain a balance between short-term and long-term growth. In this case, a large population of old people, supported by medical machines and a large healthcare apparatus, is not productive. France is facing a crisis similar to America in that it will have a large population of old people, but also a (relatively) large population of young people. Whether it will be able to use those young people effectively is in doubt, though, since France has perpetually had an unemployment rate about 2x that of the US average for the past 20 years.

At some point it either needs to start breeding more, or it needs to start living shorter lives, and the latter is much easier to implement than the former.

Israel is in a unique position though. Besieged by foes from every direction, in a status of war or quasi-war since the very foundation of their country. Birthrates are literally a survival matter for them.

Comparing France to Israel... As if we have the same impetus, or a Haredi community...

Did you skip the part where I said Ashkenazi urbanites have TFRs higher than the French average? By all rights they should be well below replacement. If it were "just Haredis" you'd expect non-Haredi Ashkenazis to have TFRs <2. They don't. They compare favorably with India. Only the handful of Christians living in Israel have TFRs below replacement rate, it seems.

In 2014, the fertility rate among Muslim and Haredi women was 6.9, but it has been dropping overall over the last two decades. For non-Haredi Jewish women, the rate is high compared with their sisters in Europe and North America. For women who define themselves as secular, it was 2.1; 2.6 for traditional women; 3 for traditional-religious women; and 4.2 for Orthodox women. In contrast to the rest of the developed world, the Israeli fertility rate is about the same as it was in the ’60s. And it has been rising in most groups in Israel in recent years.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/wit ... -1.6131135

Apparently it has to do with a combination of availability of fertility treatments, social norms of having two or more children, and the constant siege mentality, all smushed together in a morass of confounding variables. Among other things, perhaps.

[Olerand]

Yes, yes, your life expectancy, already the lowest in the developed world, is declining because you're so successful.

It means the USA will dodge the Alzheimer's epidemic that will probably institute the 7th Republic.

Just accept the fact that some people don't see it that way, and don't want that success.

Don't worry, I have, they're just wrong. The fact is that perpetual growth is neither good nor sustainable. At some point, you have to slow down, stop, and drop a bit, to maintain a balance between short-term and long-term growth. In this case, a large population of old people, supported by medical machines and a large healthcare apparatus, is not productive. France is facing a crisis similar to America in that it will have a large population of old people, but also a (relatively) large population of young people. Whether it will be able to use those young people effectively is in doubt, though, since France has perpetually had an unemployment rate about 2x that of the US average for the past 20 years.

At some point it either needs to start breeding more, or it needs to start living shorter lives, and the latter is much easier to implement than the former.

Yes, yes, congrats on your people dying. It's great for you!

Just accept the fact that the rest of the developed world doesn't want that.

[Painisia]

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

[Baltenstein]

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs.

That sounds like the most non-French thing ever, to be honest.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

Continental Western Europe in general seems to have serious problems with political instability
Italy, Spain, France, and Belgium, the three major players (with one minor as a necessary mention) are all known for having very unstable politics, just in different ways.

[Olerand]

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

Local authorities? Nonsense anti-establishment talk. The French people want centralization, they only know centralization. When they have to live like the Brits do, relying on the local Council because London is cutting off funds, we'll have an uprising that'll make the gilets jaunes look like Occupy Wall Street.

As a leftist, I can't but support more power for parliament and the government, vis-à-vis the President, though I don't know if a full parliamentary democracy is right for France. We can start by returning to the septennat (seven year terms for the president; I would make it 7,5, renewable once), as the quinquennat (5 year terms) was clearly a mistake, instituting proportional representation, and distancing the presidency more from internal issues.

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

Continental Western Europe in general seems to have serious problems with political instability
Italy, Spain, France, and Belgium, the three major players (with one minor as a necessary mention) are all known for having very unstable politics, just in different ways.

Such is the state of the world. It's more unusual to have stable politics. Humans are fickle creatures, and some very much so (May 68, during what was arguably France's greatest era post... Napoléon?).

[Gallia-]

It means the USA will dodge the Alzheimer's epidemic that will probably institute the 7th Republic.



Don't worry, I have, they're just wrong. The fact is that perpetual growth is neither good nor sustainable. At some point, you have to slow down, stop, and drop a bit, to maintain a balance between short-term and long-term growth. In this case, a large population of old people, supported by medical machines and a large healthcare apparatus, is not productive. France is facing a crisis similar to America in that it will have a large population of old people, but also a (relatively) large population of young people. Whether it will be able to use those young people effectively is in doubt, though, since France has perpetually had an unemployment rate about 2x that of the US average for the past 20 years.

At some point it either needs to start breeding more, or it needs to start living shorter lives, and the latter is much easier to implement than the former.

Yes, yes, congrats on your people dying. It's great for you!

Just accept the fact that the rest of the developed world doesn't want that.

It turns out it doesn't matter what the developed world "wants", it matters what it will get.

The difference between America, Israel, and a handful of other OECD countries (possibly including France), is that it's old people who are dying while young people are living. These are good, taken together, since a flat increase in life expectancy is lame because it usually means your old, useless population eventually outstrips the ability of your young, productive population to care for it. In France, it may end up being the opposite, as is the case in Russia, where old people live much longer than young people. Or it may not. Regardless, a growing old population is a liability, not an asset.

Certainly the bulk of OECD countries in Western Europe are going to have their population increases by 2050 buoyed essentially by "back-end" demographic growth of old people living longer, rather than "front-end" births. This means that they will collapse in population and capital when the old people die, and their economies will shift towards caring for old people later in life. This is the same whether you're France/America or Sweden/Germany. Only Israel is spared, of all the OECD countries, in not needing to confront an inevitable demographic crisis for at least a century.

France, like USA, is on the fence of whether it will see enough young people to care for its old population. Unlike USA, though, France's old people will be a drain on its economic growth and healthcare system for much longer.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs.

That sounds like the most non-French thing ever, to be honest.

Make an AI that uses machine learning from de Gaulle's and Mitterrand's speeches, policies, and biographies.

Eternal President of France. He is the one they really deserve. Mitterrand is better of the two, though. He had the big gonads to want to regime change Libya before "regime change" was cool. ;~;

[Olerand]

Yes, yes, congrats on your people dying. It's great for you!

Just accept the fact that the rest of the developed world doesn't want that.

It turns out it doesn't matter what the developed world "wants", it matters what it will get.

The difference between America, Israel, and a handful of other OECD countries (possibly including France), is that it's old people who are dying while young people are living. These are good, taken together, since a flat increase in life expectancy is lame because it usually means your old, useless population eventually outstrips the ability of your young, productive population to care for it. In France, it may end up being the opposite, as is the case in Russia, where old people live much longer than young people. Or it may not. Regardless, a growing old population is a liability, not an asset.

Certainly the bulk of OECD countries in Western Europe are going to have their population increases by 2050 buoyed essentially by "back-end" demographic growth of old people living longer, rather than "front-end" births. This means that they will collapse in population and capital when the old people die, and their economies will shift towards caring for old people later in life. This is the same whether you're France/America or Sweden/Germany. Only Israel is spared, of all the OECD countries, in not needing to confront an inevitable demographic crisis for at least a century.

France, like USA, is on the fence of whether it will see enough young people to care for its old population. Unlike USA, though, France's old people will be a drain on its economic growth and healthcare system for much longer.

Right, right, America, with the lowest life expectancy already, has peaked, somehow, and is showing the path forward. I would be more amenable to believing that... If America didn't already have the poorest results.

Anyway, only the future can tell if we're all going to go the way of America and start dying earlier (good thing America got a double head start on us then). But that's not relevant to France, to these riots, or to our contemporary lives.

[Thermodolia]

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

Why would you support taxing the French people dry. And for what? Some environmentalist bullshit? Why is it the government's job to worry about bullshit like climate change, why not let the private market take care of that shit? It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing. There is no point in taxing the French into poverty just for some environmental bullshit.

The private market wouldn’t be able to find its own ass without government help.

No fuck the private market and that blasted free market fairy. Power to the people! Power to the workers!

[Novus America]

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

France already had that mostly, the President if the Third Republic was largely a figurehead and elected by the Parliament.

[Olerand]

France has literally a tumultuous history. The comeback of the monarchy in 1815 after a revolutionary struggle, The cartoonish 1871 Paris Commune, Prime Ministers resigning nearly every week during the 1920s and 1930s and 5 grand constitutional reforms.

Personally, I would like to have the President of France to remain a symbolic head of state with no powers and instead let the legislative and local authorities take care of the domestic affairs. Cohabitations must be painful for The President (Mitterrand having to rule when his Gaullist rival Chirac was PM during 1986-1988) and when the President has some powers, that will create suspicions from the proletariat

France already had that mostly, the President if the Third Republic was largely a figurehead and elected by the Parliament.

And the Fourth Republic. The Third Republic was the right regime for its time. The Fourth... Well, that's why we're on our Fifth.

[Novus America]

With, of course, an unholy amount of subsidy to keep it anywhere near functional.

"Electric cars" and "solar power" memes are simply not profitable.

Indeed. More investment in the nuclear would be, however.

France already has the cleanest power production in the developed world and the lowest emissions per capita because of nuclear power. France already has the best electric power production in the world.

The diesel thing is not so much about climate change, it is about super shitty German (and French) cars that were intentionally and illegal designed to produce NOx emissions far beyond what is legal.

It is a NOx problem, not at CO2 one.

One problem with our focus on CO2 is it has caused us to overlook other air pollution issues.

[Petrolheadia]

Why would you support taxing the French people dry. And for what? Some environmentalist bullshit? Why is it the government's job to worry about bullshit like climate change, why not let the private market take care of that shit? It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing. There is no point in taxing the French into poverty just for some environmental bullshit.

The private market wouldn’t be able to find its own ass without government help.

No fuck the private market and that blasted free market fairy. Power to the people! Power to the workers!

Strong statement. Any base for it?

[Petrolheadia]

The diesel thing is not so much about climate change, it is about super shitty German (and French) cars that were intentionally and illegal designed to produce NOx emissions far beyond what is legal.

Strange you singled out these countries...

https://money.cnn.com/2016/04/26/news/c ... index.html
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... r-than-vws

[Novus America]

The diesel thing is not so much about climate change, it is about super shitty German (and French) cars that were intentionally and illegal designed to produce NOx emissions far beyond what is legal.

Strange you singled out these countries...

https://money.cnn.com/2016/04/26/news/c ... index.html
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... r-than-vws

The Japanese doing it too does not make it better. Punish the hell out of Mitsubishi too then.
But I would imagine the majority of cars in France, causing the smog crisis in France are Fench and German.

[Phoenicaea]

^ the republican constitutional divide should be, if you have got an elected president and chief of unitarial state (not Usa, which is truly particular, constitutionally), as in France:

it should be an half-presidential republic (in its essence it was done in De Gaulle age); so burn the last decrees, last decades, which do as the president an absolute monarch.

don t do as before De Gaulle, where it was an emblem. either you have got an absolute chief of the state, or a purely formal chief of the state, the different paths lead to the same.

do it as it was 'at the begin of the V republic', perhaps De Gaulle himself had tendencies to assume too much on himself, still his own constitution banned himself from doing.

in italy you have got this, the president which is elected by the parliament constitutionally, he may have some authority.

the constitution is good, still when it comes to the president behaving as an emblem, p. of council (the PM) is a partisan tyrant.

when you have got an elected monarch you may have a partisan tyrant, because fat cats handle it. when the president is feeble, the fat cats stay with the p.minister, which is tyrant.

if you have got half-presidential, the tendency is not overwhemly the fat cats to occupy the president position with an inept, tyrant or servant, because they taste government.

in this case, the president, elected when fat cat's attention was diverted by the prime minister election, he can nevertheless take the rein of it. and you may sack them.

[Torrocca]

Seems even the police are getting involved on the rioters' side of things.

This is fucking beautiful.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Seems even the police are getting involved on the rioters' side of things.

This is fucking beautiful.

I think it is quite clear that your very position becomes threatened the minute that the police join the protesters.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

Seems even the police are getting involved on the rioters' side of things.

This is fucking beautiful.

Yes, riots can definitely be beautiful. Peaceful protest is nowhere near as good.

[Torrocca]

Seems even the police are getting involved on the rioters' side of things.

This is fucking beautiful.

Yes, riots can definitely be beautiful. Peaceful protest is nowhere near as good.

Peaceful protest can more than easily be ignored. The fist of the people is what unnerves the elite of society.

Seems even the police are getting involved on the rioters' side of things.

This is fucking beautiful.

I think it is quite clear that your very position becomes threatened the minute that the police join the protesters.

The police are becoming comrades, which is all I'm happy for. Let them no longer be tools of the oppressors, but fighters of liberty instead!

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Yes, riots can definitely be beautiful. Peaceful protest is nowhere near as good.

Peaceful protest can more than easily be ignored. The fist of the people is what unnerves the elite of society.

I think it is quite clear that your very position becomes threatened the minute that the police join the protesters.

The police are becoming comrades, which is all I'm happy for. Let them no longer be tools of the oppressors, but fighters of liberty instead!

Sorry, but communism is equally as worthless.

[Torrocca]

Peaceful protest can more than easily be ignored. The fist of the people is what unnerves the elite of society.



The police are becoming comrades, which is all I'm happy for. Let them no longer be tools of the oppressors, but fighters of liberty instead!

Sorry, but communism is equally as worthless.

Communism is the only way we'll save the world.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Sorry, but communism is equally as worthless.

Communism is the only way we'll save the world.

Uuh...

[Torrocca]

Communism is the only way we'll save the world.

Uuh...

The liberation of all peoples and the destruction of this greed-driven system of Capitalism is our only way forward from the potential hell we've created.