Riots in France over fuel tax rises

[Baltenstein]

...What?

In November, prior to the new announcements by Macron in December, the government had already proposed some measures to the gilets jaunes. Today, it announced to the AFP that they are no longer planned, as the new measures have made them redundant; a few hours later, the prime minister announced that no, in fact, they're backpedaling on their backpedal.

All this would make for some entertaining Vaudeville theatre...if it wasn's the sad reality.

[The Tomerlands]

It's a shame Marcon is so hated now. It's only been two years and everyone hates his guts. He doesn't seem too bad of a guy, aside from his crappy neoliberal and corporatist polices that were hurting the working class and poor. I hope he makes a recovery.

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

[Bienenhalde]

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

[The Tomerlands]

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

I do too. But how can we put those fuel taxes in without everyone getting all riotery?

[Olerand]

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

... Why would I want a good neoliberal leader? And why would I want him to succeed?

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.

In November, prior to the new announcements by Macron in December, the government had already proposed some measures to the gilets jaunes. Today, it announced to the AFP that they are no longer planned, as the new measures have made them redundant; a few hours later, the prime minister announced that no, in fact, they're backpedaling on their backpedal.

Which is of course the worst way to deal with angry people. Because the people cannot be sure what the government actually intends to do, any attempt to placate the public will just be written off as deception and lies.

If you want your promises to make people happy, people actually have to believe you will actually follow through. A promise rests on the credibility of the person making the promise.

Many of the gilets jaunes genuinely hate Macron. He can honestly position himself below the guillotine and they still wouldn't be pleased.

Anyway, his personality in general, let alone his policies and lack of connections, make him rather unlikable.

[The Tomerlands]

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

... Why would I want a good neoliberal leader? And why would I want him to succeed?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.

Which is of course the worst way to deal with angry people. Because the people cannot be sure what the government actually intends to do, any attempt to placate the public will just be written off as deception and lies.

If you want your promises to make people happy, people actually have to believe you will actually follow through. A promise rests on the credibility of the person making the promise.

Many of the gilets jaunes genuinely hate Macron. He can honestly position himself below the guillotine and they still wouldn't be pleased.

Anyway, his personality in general, let alone his policies and lack of connections, make him rather unlikable.

Because why would you want any leader to fail at their job? Especially since you are a French citizen according to your account. I hate Donald Trump but I want him to do some good things. But I do see what you mean now.

[Olerand]

... Why would I want a good neoliberal leader? And why would I want him to succeed?


As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.


Many of the gilets jaunes genuinely hate Macron. He can honestly position himself below the guillotine and they still wouldn't be pleased.

Anyway, his personality in general, let alone his policies and lack of connections, make him rather unlikable.

Because why would you want any leader to fail at their job? Especially since you are a French citizen according to your account. I hate Donald Trump but I want him to do some good things. But I do see what you mean now.

Oh I don't want him to fail, I know he will.

[Holy Tedalonia]

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.

I rather we spend tax money on developing a new source of energy or refining the ones that currently exist, rather than taxing the snot out of people that don’t think its in their best interest to invest into greener energy sources.

It’s a shame, government involved technology projects are rarer and rarer by the year. Save for a few countries I can think of.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Because why would you want any leader to fail at their job? Especially since you are a French citizen according to your account. I hate Donald Trump but I want him to do some good things. But I do see what you mean now.

Oh I don't want him to fail, I know he will.

Are you from the future? Take me to your leader!

[Olerand]

As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.

I rather we spend tax money on developing a new source of energy or refining the ones that currently exist, rather than taxing the snot out of people that don’t think its in their best interest to invest into greener energy sources.

It’s a shame, government involved technology projects are rarer and rarer by the year. Save for a few countries I can think of.

We don't have that kind of money. The GJ actually want the government to invest in hydrogen cars and better batteries, according to some of their platforms (they don't have a singular project, as they don't have a singular leadership). But we don't have that kind of money. Europe does but... Europe is... frugal, it doesn't do big investments like this.

Oh I don't want him to fail, I know he will.

Are you from the future? Take me to your leader!

He's applying Blairesque policies in an era that doesn't call for them, with full knowledge of their deleterious aftereffects, in a country nowhere near as docile as Britain, and with an attitude of "I'm successful, who are you?"

He can only fail. His policies aren't making a dent in France's unemployment rate, and they won't. They are in his popularity ratings though.

[Republic of the Northern Star]

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

Why would you support taxing the French people dry. And for what? Some environmentalist bullshit? Why is it the government's job to worry about bullshit like climate change, why not let the private market take care of that shit? It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing. There is no point in taxing the French into poverty just for some environmental bullshit.

[Republic of the Northern Star]

I rather we spend tax money on developing a new source of energy or refining the ones that currently exist, rather than taxing the snot out of people that don’t think its in their best interest to invest into greener energy sources.

It’s a shame, government involved technology projects are rarer and rarer by the year. Save for a few countries I can think of.

We don't have that kind of money. The GJ actually want the government to invest in hydrogen cars and better batteries, according to some of their platforms (they don't have a singular project, as they don't have a singular leadership). But we don't have that kind of money. Europe does but... Europe is... frugal, it doesn't do big investments like this.

Are you from the future? Take me to your leader!

He's applying Blairesque policies in an era that doesn't call for them, with full knowledge of their deleterious aftereffects, in a country nowhere near as docile as Britain, and with an attitude of "I'm successful, who are you?"

He can only fail. His policies aren't making a dent in France's unemployment rate, and they won't. They are in his popularity ratings though.

How about liberalism? Freeing the markets? The reason America, Germany, and China are successful and France is slowly declining is because of the social welfare state.

[Olerand]

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

Why would you support taxing the French people dry. And for what? Some environmentalist bullshit? Why is it the government's job to worry about bullshit like climate change, why not let the private market take care of that shit? It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing. There is no point in taxing the French into poverty just for some environmental bullshit.

Yeah... This is nobody's opinion in France. The GJ don't want the market to handle climate change, they just don't want to pay taxes, though they want more public services.

We don't have that kind of money. The GJ actually want the government to invest in hydrogen cars and better batteries, according to some of their platforms (they don't have a singular project, as they don't have a singular leadership). But we don't have that kind of money. Europe does but... Europe is... frugal, it doesn't do big investments like this.


He's applying Blairesque policies in an era that doesn't call for them, with full knowledge of their deleterious aftereffects, in a country nowhere near as docile as Britain, and with an attitude of "I'm successful, who are you?"

He can only fail. His policies aren't making a dent in France's unemployment rate, and they won't. They are in his popularity ratings though.

How about liberalism? Freeing the markets? The reason America, Germany, and China are successful and France is slowly declining is because of the social welfare state.

Ah yes, Germany, a liberal utopia, a European America... China? Liberalism on steroids, the CCP is the liberal party of the world, it doesn't control huge swaths of the economy, nor impose its control on the private sector.

And as I've said numerous times, why would I want America, with its declining life expectancy and almost civil-war-esque political climate as a model for my country?

I want Denmark.

[Republic of the Northern Star]

Why would you support taxing the French people dry. And for what? Some environmentalist bullshit? Why is it the government's job to worry about bullshit like climate change, why not let the private market take care of that shit? It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing. There is no point in taxing the French into poverty just for some environmental bullshit.

Yeah... This is nobody's opinion in France. The GJ don't want the market to handle climate change, they just don't want to pay taxes, though they want more public services.

How about liberalism? Freeing the markets? The reason America, Germany, and China are successful and France is slowly declining is because of the social welfare state.

Ah yes, Germany, a liberal utopia, a European America... China? Liberalism on steroids, the CCP is the liberal party of the world, it doesn't control huge swaths of the economy, nor impose its control on the private sector.

And as I've said numerous times, why would I want America, with its declining life expectancy and almost civil-war-esque political climate as a model for my country?

I want Denmark.

Civil war -esque? two words: Swedish Democrats

[Painisia]

Why do you say that? He's better then Le Pen getting into office. Wouldn't you want to see a neoliberal leader actually do good instead of hoping he fails?

... Why would I want a good neoliberal leader? And why would I want him to succeed?

While I generally dislike Macron's neo-liberal, hyper-capitalist, individualistic policies, I 100% percent support the increased fuel taxes.

As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.

Which is of course the worst way to deal with angry people. Because the people cannot be sure what the government actually intends to do, any attempt to placate the public will just be written off as deception and lies.

If you want your promises to make people happy, people actually have to believe you will actually follow through. A promise rests on the credibility of the person making the promise.

Many of the gilets jaunes genuinely hate Macron. He can honestly position himself below the guillotine and they still wouldn't be pleased.

Anyway, his personality in general, let alone his policies and lack of connections, make him rather unlikable.

Another problem with Macron is his personality. He thinks he is a Jupiterian absolute divine god.

https://youtu.be/G3kKRhDx_Kc

[Gallia-]

Denmark would require France have a functioning economy that can cut its permanent 10% unemployment rate in half, though.

[Olerand]

Yeah... This is nobody's opinion in France. The GJ don't want the market to handle climate change, they just don't want to pay taxes, though they want more public services.


Ah yes, Germany, a liberal utopia, a European America... China? Liberalism on steroids, the CCP is the liberal party of the world, it doesn't control huge swaths of the economy, nor impose its control on the private sector.

And as I've said numerous times, why would I want America, with its declining life expectancy and almost civil-war-esque political climate as a model for my country?

I want Denmark.

Civil war -esque? two words: Swedish Democrats

... I'll admit I'm not an expert on Swedish politics, and I have no desire to see France become Sweden, but something tells me, I don't know what, that the Swedes have more unity, and even the SD do, in their country than America does.

[Gallia-]

It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing.

With, of course, an unholy amount of subsidy to keep it anywhere near functional.

"Electric cars" and "solar power" memes are simply not profitable.

We don't have that kind of money. The GJ actually want the government to invest in hydrogen cars and better batteries, according to some of their platforms (they don't have a singular project, as they don't have a singular leadership). But we don't have that kind of money. Europe does but... Europe is... frugal, it doesn't do big investments like this.


He's applying Blairesque policies in an era that doesn't call for them, with full knowledge of their deleterious aftereffects, in a country nowhere near as docile as Britain, and with an attitude of "I'm successful, who are you?"

He can only fail. His policies aren't making a dent in France's unemployment rate, and they won't. They are in his popularity ratings though.

How about liberalism? Freeing the markets? The reason America, Germany, and China are successful and France is slowly declining is because of the social welfare state.

Good soundbite but Germany's social welfare state is larger, more expensive, and generally better than France's.

[Olerand]

Denmark would require France have a functioning economy that can cut its permanent 10% unemployment rate in half, though.

Well, the Danish have a history and economic situation of their own. Our unemployment rate also hovers around 8 and 9 percent.
I would like France to be France, because, unfortunately, we can't become Danish. We don't have the culture of social compromise.

But if I am forced to choose a country I want France to emulate, it certainly wouldn't be America of the declining life expectancy, but Denmark.

Good soundbite but Germany's social welfare state is larger, more expensive, and generally better than France's.

Certainly not more expensive.

[Aellex]

It's already working, with electric cars, solar energy and all that shit the private market is already providing.

With, of course, an unholy amount of subsidy to keep it anywhere near functional.

"Electric cars" and "solar power" memes are simply not profitable.

Indeed. More investment in the nuclear would be, however.

[Olerand]

... Why would I want a good neoliberal leader? And why would I want him to succeed?


As do I. It honestly wouldn't have been such a big problem if he wasn't so generally condescending and insistent on not reinstating the wealth tax.


Many of the gilets jaunes genuinely hate Macron. He can honestly position himself below the guillotine and they still wouldn't be pleased.

Anyway, his personality in general, let alone his policies and lack of connections, make him rather unlikable.

Another problem with Macron is his personality. He thinks he is a Jupiterian absolute divine god.

https://youtu.be/G3kKRhDx_Kc

He's had far, far more egregious faults than this (the unemployed gardener whom he told to cross the street to find a job, the striking factory worker who needs to work to afford a suite, the train stations where you see people who are successful and people who are nothing, etc.)... This is actually, I believe, the one situation where I found him in the right. That kid was far out of line, and although Macron's response was harsh, and his fan-base's propagation of this instance (thinking Macron had shown some sort of regal quality here) led the kid to suffer from bullying and whatever, the boy was in the wrong, and should have been reprimanded.

[Baltenstein]

Good soundbite but Germany's social welfare state is larger, more expensive, and generally better than France's.

One thing that the French are doing right and we are - obviously - doing wrong, however, is child support policies. The birthrates speak for themselves.

[Gallia-]

Denmark would require France have a functioning economy that can cut its permanent 10% unemployment rate in half, though.

Well, the Danish have a history and economic situation of their own. Our unemployment rate also hovers around 8 and 9 percent.
I would like France to be France, because, unfortunately, we can't become Danish. We don't have the culture of social compromise.

But if I am forced to choose a country I want France to emulate, it certainly wouldn't America of the declining life expectancy, but Denmark.

Declining life expectancy is the mark of a stable and healthy society. One that has reached a peak and started going down, before the competition. Naturally, downwards movement is as important as upwards movement, because constant upwards life expectancy isn't healthy. France, as it exists, is doing its best at emulating the Soviet Union or Russia, with its constant collapses due to uppity peasant thugs burning down the state, and subsequent failed attempts at reinvention, though. It will never emulate Denmark. That would require, as you say, a "culture of social compromise", or at least a culture that accepts that thuggish behavior isn't acceptable in public discourse. France will do neither.

Le Pen's Sixth Republic will probably start declining in life expectancy at some point anyway.

Good soundbite but Germany's social welfare state is larger, more expensive, and generally better than France's.

One thing that the French are doing right and we are - obviously - doing wrong, however, is child support policies. The birthrates speak for themselves.

No one knows why French breed, though. It could be nationalism, it could be natalist policies, it could be neither. They barely hover around replacement (they're actually slightly, slightly below it, but close enough that increases in life expectancy will likely mask this trend for decades; no one divides populations into age cohorts or anything yet to show that, aside from the United States/France/Israel, the bulk of population growth in the 21st century OECD will be in old people living too long, not young people who work), so if they were doing something deliberate they would probably be slightly above replacement rate, to ensure a healthy demography perpetually. But they aren't.

OTOH, Israel has them substantially beaten, as even the smallest birth rates in Israel are ~2.3 TFR (for Ashkenazi urbanites; I think Palestinian settlers/colonizers have TFRs >3). Instead of looking to France, you need to look to Israel, TBH.

[Olerand]

Well, the Danish have a history and economic situation of their own. Our unemployment rate also hovers around 8 and 9 percent.
I would like France to be France, because, unfortunately, we can't become Danish. We don't have the culture of social compromise.

But if I am forced to choose a country I want France to emulate, it certainly wouldn't America of the declining life expectancy, but Denmark.

Declining life expectancy is the mark of a stable and healthy society. One that has reached a peak and started going down, before the competition. Naturally, downwards movement is as important as upwards movement, because constant upwards life expectancy isn't healthy. France, as it exists, is doing its best at emulating the Soviet Union or Russia, with its constant collapses due to uppity peasant thugs burning down the state, and subsequent failed attempts at reinvention, though. It will never emulate Denmark. That would require, as you say, a "culture of social compromise", or at least a culture that accepts that thuggish behavior isn't acceptable in public discourse. France will do neither.

Le Pen's Sixth Republic will probably start declining in life expectancy at some point anyway.

Yes, yes, your life expectancy, already the lowest in the developed world, is declining because you're so successful.

Just accept the fact that some people don't see it that way, and don't want that success.

And when Le Pen is president, we'll talk. Right now, Trump is in power, and not Le Pen.

Good soundbite but Germany's social welfare state is larger, more expensive, and generally better than France's.

One thing that the French are doing right and we are - obviously - doing wrong, however, is child support policies. The birthrates speak for themselves.

We can, and should do better. In an ideal world, we'd have more support for working women, a campaign urging people to have kids (like the Danes do but... less... silly), and more money for the program as the funds should be modulated to peak at the second child and fall abruptly at the fourth.

We don't need families of 8 or 10, whether they're in Versailles or Trappes.

[Baltenstein]

Well, the Danish have a history and economic situation of their own. Our unemployment rate also hovers around 8 and 9 percent.
I would like France to be France, because, unfortunately, we can't become Danish. We don't have the culture of social compromise.

But if I am forced to choose a country I want France to emulate, it certainly wouldn't America of the declining life expectancy, but Denmark.

Declining life expectancy is the mark of a stable and healthy society. One that has reached a peak and started going down, before the competition. Naturally, downwards movement is as important as upwards movement, because constant upwards life expectancy isn't healthy. France, as it exists, is doing its best at emulating the Soviet Union or Russia, with its constant collapses due to uppity peasant thugs burning down the state, and subsequent failed attempts at reinvention, though. It will never emulate Denmark. That would require, as you say, a "culture of social compromise", or at least a culture that accepts that thuggish behavior isn't acceptable in public discourse. France will do neither.

Le Pen's Sixth Republic will probably start declining in life expectancy at some point anyway.

One thing that the French are doing right and we are - obviously - doing wrong, however, is child support policies. The birthrates speak for themselves.

No one knows why French breed, though. It could be nationalism, it could be natalist policies, it could be neither. They barely hover around replacement (they're actually slightly, slightly below it, but close enough that increases in life expectancy will likely mask this trend for decades; no one divides populations into age cohorts or anything yet to show that, aside from the United States/France/Israel, the bulk of population growth in the 21st century OECD will be in old people living too long, not young people who work), so if they were doing something deliberate they would probably be slightly above replacement rate, to ensure a healthy demography perpetually. But they aren't.

OTOH, Israel has them substantially beaten, as even the smallest birth rates in Israel are ~2.3 TFR (for Ashkenazi urbanites; I think Palestinian settlers/colonizers have TFRs >3). Instead of looking to France, you need to look to Israel, TBH.

Israel is in a unique position though. Besieged by foes from every direction, in a status of war or quasi-war since the very foundation of their country. Birthrates are literally a survival matter for them.