Riots in France over fuel tax rises

[Ifreann]

Well maybe you haven't heard, but the riots worked.

And now instead of paying taxes on gas, they are trying to gather the money to fix their belongings. win-win, right?

Well the people who were rioting probably didn't damage their own property.

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Well maybe you haven't heard, but the riots worked.

I see, so the ends justify the means then. If physically-injuring innocent bystanders got you what you want in politics, then that's justified too, right?

Like when the police use tear gas? I wouldn't be mad about that, personally.

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Lets not forget a person died. nothing can justify that in this scenario.

Weren't the deaths accidents?

[Kannap]

Lets not forget a person died. nothing can justify that in this scenario.

Yeah I didn't bring up the deaths and injuries because I'm assuming people here agree that it's bad. But who knows, people could always surprise us.

Protesting for causes the people believe in is a right the people have to exercise, lest the government does things we don't like and remain silent about it.

Naturally, there are people who take advantage of this things and turn it into a looting frenzy. In this case, I read an article that said some are looting stores while the yellow vests have been barricading the stores again after looters tear down the barricades. Protesters naturally want to protect their fellow man, but then the police tend to come in and assume everybody is a looter and that's when people get hurt, that's when people die. When the police storm in with their smoke grenades, pepper spray, shields and batons and start attacking the people, it's just that: an attack on the people. With which the people have a right to self defense, especially if they feel they're in danger.

[Hakons]

Houses and business tend to be fairly expensive stuff. Which you need to pay lots of money to repair if you don't have insurance, and could raise your insurance premiums if you do and the damage via riot causes your insurance company to re-evaluate how dangerous the area you live in is. I don't find it beneficial to inflict that kind of harm on perfectly-innocent people for no good reason.

Well maybe you haven't heard, but the riots worked.

Utilitarianism will always be ugly

[Kannap]

Well maybe you haven't heard, but the riots worked.

Utilitarianism will always be ugly

That's a weird way to spell beautiful.

[Purgatio]

And now instead of paying taxes on gas, they are trying to gather the money to fix their belongings. win-win, right?

Well the people who were rioting probably didn't damage their own property.

---

I see, so the ends justify the means then. If physically-injuring innocent bystanders got you what you want in politics, then that's justified too, right?

Like when the police use tear gas? I wouldn't be mad about that, personally.

---

Lets not forget a person died. nothing can justify that in this scenario.

Weren't the deaths accidents?

If the police used tear gas to stop a violent riot and save lives, then yes, its justified. What you are talking about however, is a violent riot which killed a person, injured others and destroyed lots of valuable property....in order to end a fuel tax increase. In a country that is in severe debt. How are they even comparable with each other?

[Purgatio]

Yeah I didn't bring up the deaths and injuries because I'm assuming people here agree that it's bad. But who knows, people could always surprise us.

Protesting for causes the people believe in is a right the people have to exercise, lest the government does things we don't like and remain silent about it.

Naturally, there are people who take advantage of this things and turn it into a looting frenzy. In this case, I read an article that said some are looting stores while the yellow vests have been barricading the stores again after looters tear down the barricades. Protesters naturally want to protect their fellow man, but then the police tend to come in and assume everybody is a looter and that's when people get hurt, that's when people die. When the police storm in with their smoke grenades, pepper spray, shields and batons and start attacking the people, it's just that: an attack on the people. With which the people have a right to self defense, especially if they feel they're in danger.

I'm sorry, what? You admitted that in such protests, some people take advantage of the chaos to destroy stores and go on a 'looting frenzy', and when the police intervene, instead of assuming that they are there to, you know, respond to said 'looting frenzy' (your words), you make the strange leap to assuming they are there as 'an attack on the people'? Wow, what a bizarre stretch that is.

[Purgatio]

Utilitarianism will always be ugly

That's a weird way to spell beautiful.

So you support utilitarianism. Maximising the happiness and utility of the country as a whole. Like....say....imposing a temporarily-painful fuel tax with regressive effects on the poor in order to lessen the French budget deficit in a time of financial malaise and hopefully increase investor confidence and lower interest rates in the long-term, improving economic prosperity for the French people in the long-term future by working towards a fiscally-sustainable budget? So that kind of utilitarianism?

[Kannap]

Protesting for causes the people believe in is a right the people have to exercise, lest the government does things we don't like and remain silent about it.

Naturally, there are people who take advantage of this things and turn it into a looting frenzy. In this case, I read an article that said some are looting stores while the yellow vests have been barricading the stores again after looters tear down the barricades. Protesters naturally want to protect their fellow man, but then the police tend to come in and assume everybody is a looter and that's when people get hurt, that's when people die. When the police storm in with their smoke grenades, pepper spray, shields and batons and start attacking the people, it's just that: an attack on the people. With which the people have a right to self defense, especially if they feel they're in danger.

I'm sorry, what? You admitted that in such protests, some people take advantage of the chaos to destroy stores and go on a 'looting frenzy', and when the police intervene, instead of assuming that they are there to, you know, respond to said 'looting frenzy' (your words), you make the strange leap to assuming they are there as 'an attack on the people'? Wow, what a bizarre stretch that is.

The police are absolutely there to stop the looting frenzy, the problem is they assume everybody is looting, and start attacking protesters who are simply exercising their freedom to protest and who aren't looting - perhaps even working against the looters as I mentioned. When police turn their attack against the protesters who aren't doing anything wrong, then yes, that's an attack on the people and they have the right to defend themselves. Police swoop in brutally and horrifyingly, and when protesters see their fellow protesters being beaten and arrested, of course they are whipped into a defensive frenzy. If that means overturning cars as barricades between themselves and the police as a line of defense, by all means.

[Kannap]

That's a weird way to spell beautiful.

So you support utilitarianism. Maximising the happiness and utility of the country as a whole. Like....say....imposing a temporarily-painful fuel tax with regressive effects on the poor in order to lessen the French budget deficit in a time of financial malaise and hopefully increase investor confidence and lower interest rates in the long-term, improving economic prosperity for the French people in the long-term future by working towards a fiscally-sustainable budget? So that kind of utilitarianism?

Clearly we can assume the "temporarily-painful fuel tax bla bla bla" as well as Macron's other economy policies aren't making the French people happy, otherwise there wouldn't be such a turnout to protest.

[Purgatio]

So you support utilitarianism. Maximising the happiness and utility of the country as a whole. Like....say....imposing a temporarily-painful fuel tax with regressive effects on the poor in order to lessen the French budget deficit in a time of financial malaise and hopefully increase investor confidence and lower interest rates in the long-term, improving economic prosperity for the French people in the long-term future by working towards a fiscally-sustainable budget? So that kind of utilitarianism?

Clearly we can assume the "temporarily-painful fuel tax bla bla bla" as well as Macron's other economy policies aren't making the French people happy, otherwise there wouldn't be such a turnout to protest.

Prolonged economic malaise and anaemic recovery will make them less happy. This is a classic example of short-term economic pain versus long-term sustainable economic growth. Utilitarianism's answer in such a situation is clear.

[Kannap]

Clearly we can assume the "temporarily-painful fuel tax bla bla bla" as well as Macron's other economy policies aren't making the French people happy, otherwise there wouldn't be such a turnout to protest.

Prolonged economic malaise and anaemic recovery will make them less happy. This is a classic example of short-term economic pain versus long-term sustainable economic growth. Utilitarianism's answer in such a situation is clear.

If this is the answer the French people got when they initially voiced dissent, I can see why they started protesting.

[Bienenhalde]

Good to see France at least is regaining its revolutionary spirit,

That said, I expect it won't end till Macron and all his cronies are gone. France needs a new political order, and not the Neo-Fascist one that the OP seems to pine for.

France needs the restoration of authoritarian conservative green monarchism.

[Purgatio]

Prolonged economic malaise and anaemic recovery will make them less happy. This is a classic example of short-term economic pain versus long-term sustainable economic growth. Utilitarianism's answer in such a situation is clear.

If this is the answer the French people got when they initially voiced dissent, I can see why they started protesting.

So they protested because they are short-sighted cry-babies who don't understand how to achieve economic recovery following a regional economic crisis coupled with high budget deficits and accompanying-high prime interest rates? I see, glad we agree then

[Bienenhalde]

Jesus Christ....you're talking about committing mass vandalism (possible inflicting physical injuries on random bystanders in the intermittent chaos)....because of fuel tax increases? Jeez, talk about a massive overreaction to a tiny, trivial matter.

And they are wrong about the tax increase being a bad thing, too.

[Kannap]

If this is the answer the French people got when they initially voiced dissent, I can see why they started protesting.

So they protested because they are short-sighted cry-babies who don't understand how to achieve economic recovery following a regional economic crisis coupled with high budget deficits and accompanying-high prime interest rates? I see, glad we agree then

Seems like somebody's a little upset at the fact that some people are passionate enough about how their government actually governs them that they're ready to protest against policies that hurt them.

[Bienenhalde]

Well this could be solved if people decided to have a nice, civilized chat instead of immediately resorting to violence.
(Image)

It's the French, they have a history of violence, you think that's gonna end now?

Perhaps it could end if everyone would just admit that the French Revolution was a mistake.

[Mardla]

Good to see France at least is regaining its revolutionary spirit,

That said, I expect it won't end till Macron and all his cronies are gone. France needs a new political order, and not the Neo-Fascist one that the OP seems to pine for.

France needs the restoration of authoritarian conservative green monarchism.

Time to revive Action française?

[Purgatio]

So they protested because they are short-sighted cry-babies who don't understand how to achieve economic recovery following a regional economic crisis coupled with high budget deficits and accompanying-high prime interest rates? I see, glad we agree then

Seems like somebody's a little upset at the fact that some people are passionate enough about how their government actually governs them that they're ready to protest against policies that hurt them.

I'm not personally upset, I'm not French and if the French economy continues its anaemic state it doesn't affect my life at all. I'm just shocked that there are people out there dumb enough to shoot their own national economy in the foot and, by extension, their own financial situation. That they will kill people and destroy property in order to achieve abovementioned shooting of their own economy in the foot just compounds the stupidity and short-sightedness.

[Kannap]

It's the French, they have a history of violence, you think that's gonna end now?

Perhaps it could end if everyone would just admit that the French Revolution was a mistake.

Ha, hahahaha

[Mardla]

Perhaps it could end if everyone would just admit that the French Revolution was a mistake.

Ha, hahahaha

It was pretty shit, but largely irrelevant as a political topic today. France might return to centralizing of power in one man, but he won't use the title king.

[Bear Stearns]

I want Macron to win. As an investment banker, we look after our own.

However, he's such an awful leader and his policies are shit that it's probably for the best if he's removed from power.

I have conflicting interests here.

[Mardla]

I want Macron to win. As an investment banker, we look after our own.

However, he's such an awful leader and his policies are shit that it's probably for the best if he's removed from power.

I have conflicting interests here.

Kind of a metaphor for your ilk in general.

[Khataiy]

I urge the French government to show restraint and treat its people with dignity and respect and to end any alleged abuses to human rights in this model Democratic state

[Olerand]

If Macron was smart, he would have used his position to subsidize electric car makers and make them affordable for people. Along with that, offer a tax incentive for those who buy electric cars (Maybe even do a car trade in thing. Trade in your gas powered vehicle and the government will pay for a portion of it.) and get rid of that stupid vest rule. Maybe offer a tax incentive to have electric vehicle manufacturers to include the things in the trunk of the vehicle. Just a suggestion. Maybe half of Paris, and France in general, wouldn't be on the brink of civil war.

We don't have the money for that. And even more so, it's not the issue with providing people with electric cars, but the logistics of these cars, as well as the quasi-non-existent infrastructure to service them. What we would need to do is invest in electric battery technology (massively), encourage electric car purchases (massively), and develop the necessary infrastructure for these cars, all funded through public funds, and presumably to have that infrastructure run for private profit. Otherwise, that would essentially be like re-nationalizing Total, or creating some sort of electric Total. Which we don't have the money for.

and not the Neo-Fascist one that the OP seems to pine for.

Assuming that's true, He's hardly the only one. Leftists in France in the Press and the Government had been crawling over one another to claim it was all a far right plot. Macron’s ministers immediately tried to discredit the gilets jaunes as having links to neo-fascists. It's proof of blaming everything on imaginary Nazis, when really it was the left-leaning government being increasingly out of touch from the working & middle class.

"Leftists in France"?... Uh... Maybe some on the Parisian Anglo-Saxon "left" bobo side, who inherently cannot find themselves supporting a movement manned mostly by whites. But by and large, the "left" isn't calling them fascist at all. How could they when the polls show a majority of the country supports them, and when the left-wing populist leader Mélenchon fancies himself a chieftain of the movement?

Well maybe you haven't heard, but the riots worked.

And now instead of paying taxes on gas, they are trying to gather the money to fix their belongings. win-win, right?

Do you people have a concept of insurance? I know for a fact it exists in the Anglo-Saxon world... Anyway, the State more often than not also helps those whose property is damaged in riots and looting. Now if the State has money is another question, but this is a trivial expense anyway.

Good to see France at least is regaining its revolutionary spirit,

That said, I expect it won't end till Macron and all his cronies are gone. France needs a new political order, and not the Neo-Fascist one that the OP seems to pine for.

France needs the restoration of authoritarian conservative green monarchism.

The only thing worse than Macron elitism is being led by inbred elitism. At least Macron and Brigitte aren't related.

If this is the answer the French people got when they initially voiced dissent, I can see why they started protesting.

So they protested because they are short-sighted cry-babies who don't understand how to achieve economic recovery following a regional economic crisis coupled with high budget deficits and accompanying-high prime interest rates? I see, glad we agree then

Uh... Yeah, none of this has anything to do with the protesters. And "high prime interest rates"? On French bonds? Anyway...

Jesus Christ....you're talking about committing mass vandalism (possible inflicting physical injuries on random bystanders in the intermittent chaos)....because of fuel tax increases? Jeez, talk about a massive overreaction to a tiny, trivial matter.

And they are wrong about the tax increase being a bad thing, too.

You're not wrong. But it served a better purpose, putting Macron back in his place.

Seems like somebody's a little upset at the fact that some people are passionate enough about how their government actually governs them that they're ready to protest against policies that hurt them.

I'm not personally upset, I'm not French and if the French economy continues its anaemic state it doesn't affect my life at all. I'm just shocked that there are people out there dumb enough to shoot their own national economy in the foot and, by extension, their own financial situation. That they will kill people and destroy property in order to achieve abovementioned shooting of their own economy in the foot just compounds the stupidity and short-sightedness.

... Are you people under the pretense that the looting of some stores in Paris and the Province is... what's going to tank the French economy? Looting stores that have... insurance?

I urge the French government to show restraint and treat its people with dignity and respect and to end any alleged abuses to human rights in this model Democratic state

French police? Restraint?........... Alright....

[Mardla]

I urge the French government to show restraint and treat its people with dignity and respect and to end any alleged abuses to human rights in this model Democratic state

Dunno how many homosexual catalogues you had to browse in order to consider France "model" anything.