Riots in France over fuel tax rises

[Vistora]

Parochial mindsets and self-assigned virtue triumphs once more. It's almost remarkable, really, how the French are able to use revolutionary rhetoric to enforce utter political stasis.

I used to be mildly optimistic about humanity's chances of tackling the greatest crisis of a generation. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, however, by the left's sheer speed in abandoning the fight against climate change in favour of petty point-scoring.

Nobody ever said decarbonisation would be easy, but boy oh boy never would I have expected hordes of rioters to be so manifestly weak. Positive change is for other people to make, I suppose.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I like Macron. I just think this policy is shit and can't fault the French from getting angry and rioting. You tell your constituents to buy these diesel cars because they're better, they invest in them, then you shaft them with a fuel tax (granted, you didn't know the cars were lemons) and don't offer to at least buy back the cars or at least honor their investments... I would be super angry too.

[Kaggeceria]

I like Macron. I just think this policy is shit and can't fault the French from getting angry and rioting. You tell your constituents to buy these diesel cars because they're better, they invest in them, then you shaft them with a fuel tax (granted, you didn't know the cars were lemons) and don't offer to at least buy back the cars or at least honor their investments... I would be super angry too.

Idk what they're like in Europe, but here in America diesel cars are quite fuel efficient. Much better than gas cars.

Seems to me Macron's just being a dick.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I like Macron. I just think this policy is shit and can't fault the French from getting angry and rioting. You tell your constituents to buy these diesel cars because they're better, they invest in them, then you shaft them with a fuel tax (granted, you didn't know the cars were lemons) and don't offer to at least buy back the cars or at least honor their investments... I would be super angry too.

Idk what they're like in Europe, but here in America diesel cars are quite fuel efficient. Much better than gas cars.

Seems to me Macron's just being a dick.

The issue, IIRC, is that these cars weren't made properly. Usually, diesel cars can be very efficient.

[Kaggeceria]

Idk what they're like in Europe, but here in America diesel cars are quite fuel efficient. Much better than gas cars.

Seems to me Macron's just being a dick.

The issue, IIRC, is that these cars weren't made properly. Usually, diesel cars can be very efficient.

Hm, well, hardly seems like something to punish your own people over.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Diesel cars can be very efficient when newly made, but the older models lose that efficiency fast. They also create more localised problems, which is why diesel cars are banned from some European inner cities.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The issue, IIRC, is that these cars weren't made properly. Usually, diesel cars can be very efficient.

Hm, well, hardly seems like something to punish your own people over.

And I agree. More so for people who do not live in big cities like Paris and need a car for transport because of the absence of trains or buses in their area.

[Holy Tedalonia]

lol

Why, though? Why not produce cheap, easily-replaceable goods? What incentive would they have to not do that?

Probably the main reason would be that there's no fucking need for it? It's way better in the long-term to have effective, long-lasting, quality items, first and foremost, and secondly the lack of a profit motive because, y'know, Communism, would mean there's no reason to produce cheap consumer goods that'd maximize profits because more items are being sold as replacements.

Tell me right now, that China creates long-lasting quality goods. If you were to tell me that now, you would be a fool or a liar. Communism while being managed, and resources distributed to fit the nations needs (to the best of its abilities), however the first and foremost thing in communism is ‘equality’ and mass production. I can’t make valuable goods, because it isn’t necessary. There main focus is to make so much crappy goods that everyone can have one.

So basically Communism =/= quality, but rather quantity.

[Hakons]

The Soviets drained an ENTIRE SEA in central Asia, and you're propping communism as a supposedly eco-friendly alternative? Climate change is caused by industrialization, not capitalism (or communism).

[Senkaku]

Probably the main reason would be that there's no fucking need for it? It's way better in the long-term to have effective, long-lasting, quality items, first and foremost, and secondly the lack of a profit motive because, y'know, Communism, would mean there's no reason to produce cheap consumer goods that'd maximize profits because more items are being sold as replacements.

Tell me right now, that China creates long-lasting quality goods.

Tell me right now, that China is Communist.

Also, y'all are kinda departing from the topic~

[Torrocca]

Probably the main reason would be that there's no fucking need for it? It's way better in the long-term to have effective, long-lasting, quality items, first and foremost, and secondly the lack of a profit motive because, y'know, Communism, would mean there's no reason to produce cheap consumer goods that'd maximize profits because more items are being sold as replacements.

Tell me right now, that China creates long-lasting quality goods. If you were to tell me that now, you would be a fool or a liar. Communism while being managed, and resources distributed to fit the nations needs (to the best of its abilities), however the first and foremost thing in communism is ‘equality’ and mass production. I can’t make valuable goods, because it isn’t necessary. There main focus is to make so much crappy goods that everyone can have one.

So basically Communism =/= quality, but rather quantity.

The Soviets drained an ENTIRE SEA in central Asia, and you're propping communism as a supposedly eco-friendly alternative? Climate change is caused by industrialization, not capitalism (or communism).

If you first assumed I, an Anarchist, would argue that China and the USSR were or are Communist, you're sorely mistaken. If you secondly assumed I would make that argument because they simply slapped a name to their respective authoritarian political parties that said Communist, then you're also sorely mistaken.

Simply put, those places were not and are not Communist. And, no, before either of you go about and cry, "muh No True Scotsman!!1!", take a nice, long, solid look at how Communism is defined and pretty much universally agreed upon by actual Communists as a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the working class owns the means of production (which, for an actual, working example of that, you need not look further than the Zapatistas), which neither Red China nor the USSR were nor are. They were/are authoritarian regimes hellbent on maintaining the status quo of the state's power, which is something that, if you've even read a modicum of Marx, Engels, Bakunin, or Kropotkin, would notice is dialectically opposed to Communist ideas.

Furthermore, those regimes were specifically working within a larger framework of the Cold War and nowadays China is working in the framework of global consumerism, which meant both were/are HEAVILY reliant on mass, quantity-based production to out-compete other Capitalist nations to become the dominant system of authoritarianism or to even just survive against them. Not that that matters much here, since neither were Communist to begin with. But I digress.

Furthermore, this is just a convenient little detraction from the original point of the matter that Capitalism is still the root of environmental problems today, as I supported with sources, and that Macron's policy here of taxing the working class is doing absolutely nothing to resolve the issue whatsoever.

[Hakons]

Tell me right now, that China creates long-lasting quality goods. If you were to tell me that now, you would be a fool or a liar. Communism while being managed, and resources distributed to fit the nations needs (to the best of its abilities), however the first and foremost thing in communism is ‘equality’ and mass production. I can’t make valuable goods, because it isn’t necessary. There main focus is to make so much crappy goods that everyone can have one.

So basically Communism =/= quality, but rather quantity.

The Soviets drained an ENTIRE SEA in central Asia, and you're propping communism as a supposedly eco-friendly alternative? Climate change is caused by industrialization, not capitalism (or communism).

If you first assumed I, an Anarchist, would argue that China and the USSR were or are Communist, you're sorely mistaken. If you secondly assumed I would make that argument because they simply slapped a name to their respective authoritarian political parties that said Communist, then you're also sorely mistaken.

Simply put, those places were not and are not Communist. And, no, before either of you go about and cry, "muh No True Scotsman!!1!", take a nice, long, solid look at how Communism is defined and pretty much universally agreed upon by actual Communists as a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the working class owns the means of production (which, for an actual, working example of that, you need not look further than the Zapatistas), which neither Red China nor the USSR were nor are. They were/are authoritarian regimes hellbent on maintaining the status quo of the state's power, which is something that, if you've even read a modicum of Marx, Engels, Bakunin, or Kropotkin, would notice is dialectically opposed to Communist ideas.

Furthermore, those regimes were specifically working within a larger framework of the Cold War and nowadays China is working in the framework of global consumerism, which meant both were/are HEAVILY reliant on mass, quantity-based production to out-compete other Capitalist nations to become the dominant system of authoritarianism or to even just survive against them. Not that that matters much here, since neither were Communist to begin with. But I digress.

Furthermore, this is just a convenient little detraction from the original point of the matter that Capitalism is still the root of environmental problems today, as I supported with sources, and that Macron's policy here of taxing the working class is doing absolutely nothing to resolve the issue whatsoever.

>"Don't call it a no true Scotsman"
>entire argument is a no true Scotsman

I'm not really wanting to argue what is "true communism." I'm objecting to the patently absurd notion that communism is somehow hippy green eco fun land. Once again, climate change is caused by industrialization on a mass scale. Industrialization happens under both capitalism and communism. That is utterly undeniable.

[Torrocca]

If you first assumed I, an Anarchist, would argue that China and the USSR were or are Communist, you're sorely mistaken. If you secondly assumed I would make that argument because they simply slapped a name to their respective authoritarian political parties that said Communist, then you're also sorely mistaken.

Simply put, those places were not and are not Communist. And, no, before either of you go about and cry, "muh No True Scotsman!!1!", take a nice, long, solid look at how Communism is defined and pretty much universally agreed upon by actual Communists as a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the working class owns the means of production (which, for an actual, working example of that, you need not look further than the Zapatistas), which neither Red China nor the USSR were nor are. They were/are authoritarian regimes hellbent on maintaining the status quo of the state's power, which is something that, if you've even read a modicum of Marx, Engels, Bakunin, or Kropotkin, would notice is dialectically opposed to Communist ideas.

Furthermore, those regimes were specifically working within a larger framework of the Cold War and nowadays China is working in the framework of global consumerism, which meant both were/are HEAVILY reliant on mass, quantity-based production to out-compete other Capitalist nations to become the dominant system of authoritarianism or to even just survive against them. Not that that matters much here, since neither were Communist to begin with. But I digress.

Furthermore, this is just a convenient little detraction from the original point of the matter that Capitalism is still the root of environmental problems today, as I supported with sources, and that Macron's policy here of taxing the working class is doing absolutely nothing to resolve the issue whatsoever.

>"Don't call it a no true Scotsman"
>entire argument is a no true Scotsman

I literally explained why it's not. But, yeah, sure, just misinterpret it this hard. Both even called themselves Socialist countries, but, nah, I'm definitely the one in the wrong in this argument here.

I'm not really wanting to argue what is "true communism." I'm objecting to the patently absurd notion that communism is somehow hippy green eco fun land. Once again, climate change is caused by industrialization on a mass scale. Industrialization happens under both capitalism and communism. That is utterly undeniable.

This is why we need the Anti-Civilization Aktion AnPrim gang to rise up in a popular revolt and push us back into the stone age. :3

[Vince Vaughn]

The Soviets drained an ENTIRE SEA in central Asia, and you're propping communism as a supposedly eco-friendly alternative? Climate change is caused by industrialization, not capitalism (or communism).

They are also responsible for the single most environmentally destructive event in human history, Chernobyl.

[Rio Cana]

Seems some here are behind the times. Todays modern gasoline engines are much better then diesel engines. Do not take my word but the word from this famous youtube mechanic who has been fixing cars for 50 years.
The following is one of his short videos which explains "why not to buy a diesel car" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZLX8YGyGc8

[Novus America]

The Soviets drained an ENTIRE SEA in central Asia, and you're propping communism as a supposedly eco-friendly alternative? Climate change is caused by industrialization, not capitalism (or communism).

Yes. The Soviet Union was perhaps the most environmentally destructive and wasteful regime.
Without a price mechanism and profit motive, there is no way to effectively allocate resources and no cost placed on the producer for using more than is needed.

A state owned steel mill makes steel based on political quotas, not need.

Properly regulated capitalism can work.
As noted France already has low very low carbon emissions (due to nuclear power) but has high NOx thanks to fraud on the part of major French and German automakers.

Punish the automakers who committed the fraud, not the people who got ripped off. Fraud violates important premises of properly functioning capitalism. It cannot be tolerated.

[Petrolheadia]

Diesel cars can be very efficient when newly made, but the older models lose that efficiency fast.

Source?

My family's diesel 2007 Toyota Corolla has passed all its inspections since new, our petrol 1997 Nissan Almera once failed in the mid-00s. It's not really a rule.

They also create more localised problems, which is why diesel cars are banned from some European inner cities.

And does it mean people should be punished for using what they might even have ben encouraged to buy?

[Trumptonium1]

Edouard Philippe has just announced the government is scrapping the fuel tax increase, and Macron bound himself to not announce a state of emergency.

It appears people action has won.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Edouard Philippe has just announced the government is scrapping the fuel tax increase, and Macron bound himself to not announce a state of emergency.

It appears people action has won.

It seems the spirit of the French Revolution triumphs again.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

Edouard Philippe has just announced the government is scrapping the fuel tax increase, and Macron bound himself to not announce a state of emergency.

It appears people action has won.

Peasants, rejoice! Vive la France, let the LREM elitists know one does not simply put the entire burden on the middle and lower classes and expect no retaliation in return. Macron is a total catastrophe and a complete bought and paid for shill of the banks and the EU neoliberals, and if he keeps it up, Le Pen shall crush him like a bug in 2022.

>Inb4 the fuel tax is re-instated AGAIN after the masses grow complacent, return home, and forget about it all, thinking the promise is binding in any way

[Cedoria]

Yes but you see our planet has to last for thousands of years to come, we have our future generations to worry about, and consumerism at this point is unsustainable.

Source on that?

Also, it's a big fucking rock. It'll survive pretty much anything. At worst the supply/demand curve will readjust.

It probably will, we on the other hand might be less lucky.

[Augustus Legions]

so when does a corsican guy come in and cause a cascade of events which will end up causing two of the worlds largest and deadlies wars?

[Darussalam]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/worl ... vests.html

In a major concession by President Emmanuel Macron, France will suspend a tax increase on gasoline and diesel fuel that had been slated for January in an attempt to quell weeks of protests and rioting by the so-called Yellow Vests movement, according to two lawmakers.

[...]

“We’re not satisfied because the French have been struggling for years now,” Benjamin Cauchy, one of the spokesman, said on BFMTV. “This could have been done weeks ago and we would have avoided all these problems. Our demands are much bigger than this moratorium. They’ve got to stop hitting the wallets of the small earners. We want a better distribution of wealth, salary increases. It’s about the whole baguette, not just the crumbs.”

...very interesting. This is exactly the same sort of attitude one would expect from African migrants, which if expressed from their side would be (rightly) interpreted as taking hostage of the country. One would think, then, that maybe migrants aren't the sole problem of France - arrogant sense of entitlement supported by a fiscally irresponsible state might actually be the French's own baguette after all.

[Darussalam]

At any case, it shows why conceding to the mob is a pointlessly dangerous course of action.

[Petrolheadia]

Edouard Philippe has just announced the government is scrapping the fuel tax increase, and Macron bound himself to not announce a state of emergency.

It appears people action has won.

Vive le France!