The Debate on Free College for America

[Katganistan]

Both of my parents got a free college education. They paid only for books and a nominal activity fee, but the tuition was absolutely free.

They both became teachers and had long, successful careers at using that education to educate others.

I see no reason why we should not offer free college education on the state and city level, while private colleges remained for-profit. It's been done before.

[Katganistan]

It's not really an issue of free college cost. People are going to college anyway, so you might as well make it free. College attendance rates are going up and the US is a meritocracy so you won't admit everyone into college. Community college and vocational programs also have limited space so the space would be more of an issue than cost. The only strings attatched to the idea of free college is would there be any space or are you deserving of merit enough to attend the college? Besides, if people were to go to college, this would benefit the economy for a more skilled labor.

I would also agree that vocational programs definitely need a boost as not everyone needs to go to college to do the career they want.

Please, say that louder for the MBAs and lawyers (as opposed to educators) in charge of education today.

Students used to be able to learn a profession that did not involve academics in our schools -- auto mechanics, food service, aviation mechanics, business subjects such as bookkeeping, shorthand, typing.... for those students who were not interested in higher education and wanted/needed to be employed instead. We have now turned "Everyone who wants to should have the opportunity to go to college" to "Everyone regardless of desire or ability MUST be tracked as college bound" with results that are predictable and absolutely unfair to those who prefer to go to work instead.

[Katganistan]

But hey way to go congratulations for shitting on the humanities and the liberal arts.

I’m not defecating on anything. I merely stated a fact. I can read and understand Steven Crane and Hemingway quite well, that doesn’t mean I’m guaranteed steak and fine wine for dinner.

No, but the skills in understanding how language works, and analyzing character actually does benefit people in the business world in understanding not everyone thinks the same way and that context is important.

[Katganistan]

Because the schools are fucking greedy. Tuition rose because our government practically signed a blank check with the student loan program. The schools knew that students couldn’t afford the price tag but the government would always deliver so they raised the price.

The Solution is to nationalize all public universities and have a single base price. School shouldn’t cost more than 24k for 4 years

How'd you get the number of 6000 a year? (or 3k per semester?)

This is close to Therm's proposal, for residents of the state of NY. Even so, the out-of-state tuition is far less than many private colleges.

[Risottia]

"We can't have free colleges, because that would eat away our wonderful tax cut policies aimed at the 1% richest art of the country".

Just wonderful.

[Geneviev]

I'll just point out that some of my friends have nightmares about student loan debt. Anyways, America spends an absolutely ridiculous amount of money on the military. At least some of that can go towards at least making universities less expensive. It doesn't have to be free. Then again, I can just go back to Germany.

[Petrolheadia]

Fine. Forget housing. The costs are still high. Tuition, fees, classes, materials, etc.

Because the schools are fucking greedy. Tuition rose because our government practically signed a blank check with the student loan program. The schools knew that students couldn’t afford the price tag but the government would always deliver so they raised the price.

The Solution is to nationalize all public universities and have a single base price. School shouldn’t cost more than 24k for 4 years

Great idea to have stagnation and have the universities peddle any bullshit the goverment would want them to peddle.

[Petrolheadia]

IKEA also sells in the US.

But we don't get the good IKEA Swedish Meatballs.

We get their crappy American counterparts, and that's just inhumane.

The difference is?

[New Wrepland]

Saying “nothing is free” is a pretty dumb move in this context and it’s very telling that you’re proud of yourself for that.

My opinion, as a student going to public college, is that colleges shouldn’t be free. I don’t think higher education is a fundamental right, nor is it going to help everyone if they all receive it. On the other hand colleges certainly have to be regulated so that they can’t act as opportunistic as they have been, hiring adjuncts instead of real professors, milking foreign students, directing money towards ridiculous renovations in order to get some higher ranking on a non-academic list. Stuff like Cuomo’s “free tuition” scholarship, are also ok in my opinion because it’s so hard to get the people who do receive it probably won’t be the kind to not receive a worthwhile education and end up not being a benefit (albeit not necessarily tangible to everybody) to society in one way or another.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

It's not up for debate. Education should be a right, simple as that. There are no drawbacks to an educated populace.

[Petrolheadia]

It's not up for debate. Education should be a right, simple as that. There are no drawbacks to an educated populace.

1. Undereductaion of tradesmen.
2. Degree inflation.
3. Wasted resources.

[Jebslund]

It's not up for debate. Education should be a right, simple as that. There are no drawbacks to an educated populace.

1. Undereductaion of tradesmen.
2. Degree inflation.
3. Wasted resources.

1: Because vocational colleges/trade schools aren't a thing that currently costs money that would be educational...
2: Worthless argument. The purpose of education is betterment, not ego-stroking.
3: But starting a decade-long war to (let's not fucking kid ourselves) steal another nation's oil isn't a waste of resources? Building a wall that won't even have a significant impact on illegal immigration (Most fly in, and most of those perfectly legally (the illegal part comes when they overstay their visas).), and sending troops to the border (who get paid more when they're expected to see combat) aren't wastes of resources?

[Petrolheadia]

1. Undereductaion of tradesmen.
2. Degree inflation.
3. Wasted resources.

1: Because vocational colleges/trade schools aren't a thing that currently costs money that would be educational...

They are often a cheaper, overlooked alternative to colleges.

2: Worthless argument. The purpose of education is betterment, not ego-stroking.

I'm not gonna spend tax money on some guy's idea of "betterment" that involves my cash.

3: But starting a decade-long war to (let's not fucking kid ourselves) steal another nation's oil isn't a waste of resources? Building a wall that won't even have a significant impact on illegal immigration (Most fly in, and most of those perfectly legally (the illegal part comes when they overstay their visas).), and sending troops to the border (who get paid more when they're expected to see combat) aren't wastes of resources?

What does it have to do with the financial viability of free education?

Also, the border wall is a 10-20 billion dollar affair, spread over years, that would lower downward pressure on wages by immigrants.

At over 20 million college students, free college would cost at least over ~$120 billion a year, and likely more.

[Jebslund]

They are often a cheaper, overlooked alternative to colleges.

Vocational colleges are not an "alternative" to college, they "are" colleges. That the focus on one area no more makes them not colleges than focusing on one area makes magnet schools not schools.

I'm not gonna spend tax money on some guy's idea of "betterment" that involves my cash.

But you are going to spend it to steal oil or build a useless wall?

Also like to point out that *you* can also be that "some guy", far more cheaply than if you paid your own way. Degree became obsolete? Get a new one. Want to change fields? Go to a trade school, pay nothing but your taxes. Always wanted to learn about a particular field? Well, there's a college for that!

And before you say, "Well, I don't wanna, so it's still useless!", consider the fact that more educated people means a better society as a whole, and that kind of, "Fuck you, got mine!" attitude is what allowed tuition to be so unreasonably expensive in the first place.

What does it have to do with the financial viability of free education?
Also, the border wall is a 10-20 billion dollar affair, spread over years, that would lower downward pressure on wages by immigrants.

At over 20 million college students, free college would cost at least over ~$120 billion a year, and likely more.

You claim it is a waste. I'm pointing out that that's not an argument, as there are plenty of things that are far more wasteful and provide far less benefit that people who take your view love to sing the praises of.

The border wall will not even pay for itself. Again, the vast majority of immigrants do not go by land, they go by plane, and the majority of those do not break the law in doing so, only by staying longer than their visas are good for.

So about $368.44 per person, per year. Also known as about $31 bucks a month. That's less than you spend on car insurance.

[Petrolheadia]

Vocational colleges are not an "alternative" to college, they "are" colleges. That the focus on one area no more makes them not colleges than focusing on one area makes magnet schools not schools.

But you are going to spend it to steal oil or build a useless wall?

Also like to point out that *you* can also be that "some guy", far more cheaply than if you paid your own way. Degree became obsolete? Get a new one. Want to change fields? Go to a trade school, pay nothing but your taxes. Always wanted to learn about a particular field? Well, there's a college for that!

And before you say, "Well, I don't wanna, so it's still useless!", consider the fact that more educated people means a better society as a whole, and that kind of, "Fuck you, got mine!" attitude is what allowed tuition to be so unreasonably expensive in the first place.

You claim it is a waste. I'm pointing out that that's not an argument, as there are plenty of things that are far more wasteful and provide far less benefit that people who take your view love to sing the praises of.

Since when does the existence of a bigger waste invalidate the existence of a smaller one?

Also, as I said, the border wall would be a smaller waste if it was a waste.

[Jebslund]

You claim it is a waste. I'm pointing out that that's not an argument, as there are plenty of things that are far more wasteful and provide far less benefit that people who take your view love to sing the praises of.

Since when does the existence of a bigger waste invalidate the existence of a smaller one?

Also, as I said, the border wall would be a smaller waste if it was a waste.

When you advocate openly for the bigger waste, "It's a waste of resources!" ceases to be a valid argument, as you are clearly willing to support a much larger waste.

And, as to the wall:


The border wall will not even pay for itself. Again, the vast majority of immigrants do not go by land, they go by plane, and the majority of those do not break the law in doing so, only by staying longer than their visas are good for.

[Petrolheadia]

Since when does the existence of a bigger waste invalidate the existence of a smaller one?

Also, as I said, the border wall would be a smaller waste if it was a waste.

When you advocate openly for the bigger waste, "It's a waste of resources!" ceases to be a valid argument, as you are clearly willing to support a much larger waste.

And, as to the wall:


The border wall will not even pay for itself. Again, the vast majority of immigrants do not go by land, they go by plane, and the majority of those do not break the law in doing so, only by staying longer than their visas are good for.

You advocate for the bigger waste here. 120+b a year versus 10-20b one-time.

[Galloism]

Do you have homeowner’s insurance?

I don’t own any land

Well, insurance is what turns a tornado from "my life is over" to "that really sucked, we need to rebuild".

[Jebslund]

When you advocate openly for the bigger waste, "It's a waste of resources!" ceases to be a valid argument, as you are clearly willing to support a much larger waste.

And, as to the wall:


The border wall will not even pay for itself. Again, the vast majority of immigrants do not go by land, they go by plane, and the majority of those do not break the law in doing so, only by staying longer than their visas are good for.

You advocate for the bigger waste here. 120+b a year versus 10-20b one-time.

Waste is measured in utility obtained for the price paid, not in cost alone, and that 10-20b is hardly the only cost involved with the wall. You seem to have neglected maintenance costs, patrol costs (yes, walls must be patrolled if they are to be effective. A wall someone finds a way to climb may as well not exist if no-one notices that someone's found a way to climb it.), money spent keeping the land around it clear, and other costs over time that need to be paid in order for the wall to be even insignificantly useful.

That $31 a month buys you a better, more productive society (I'd be an expert electrician by now if I'd been able to afford vocational school. Granted, I currently help hard of hearing people communicate over the phone for a living, but still...), which leads to more profitable companies, which leads to a stronger economy, which leads to more money overall, vs $5 a month that gets you a money sink that saves you MAYBE a few pennies a month if you don't count how much of that goes right back into the money sink.

[Luziyca]

I propose free college only for students who reach a certain grade point average or SAT score. Paying for free college for students who are too lazy or stupid would be a waste of money, but talented and hardworking students should not get shut out of college just because they come from poor families.

Agreed, but I feel that this should only apply to domestic students. International students will have to pay their way through college.

[Jebslund]

I propose free college only for students who reach a certain grade point average or SAT score. Paying for free college for students who are too lazy or stupid would be a waste of money, but talented and hardworking students should not get shut out of college just because they come from poor families.

Agreed, but I feel that this should only apply to domestic students. International students will have to pay their way through college.

This is a plan that makes sense. We'd be paying for college as an investment in our own society, not as foreign aid.

[Geneviev]

I propose free college only for students who reach a certain grade point average or SAT score. Paying for free college for students who are too lazy or stupid would be a waste of money, but talented and hardworking students should not get shut out of college just because they come from poor families.

I completely agree. What would you suggest for the GPA or SAT score?

[Luziyca]

Agreed, but I feel that this should only apply to domestic students. International students will have to pay their way through college.

This is a plan that makes sense. We'd be paying for college as an investment in our own society, not as foreign aid.

Indeed: if a Canadian wants to study in Canada, they can get free college if they are above a certain grade. If an American wants to study in Canada, then they'll have to pay for everything.

I feel the only downside of having that in place may be the fact that universities will have to try and attract more foreign students if they wish to receive similar revenues compared to what they have, even if it comes at the cost of domestic students. But I feel that these approaches would not only ensure that government monies are saved, but also ensure that for those who are talented and hardworking can be able to attend college, no matter their financial situation.

Now, if a country wants to have free college for everyone... that's their prerogative.

[Caldreania]

Simply no. Encouraging more scholarships, especially in STEM and other needed fields, would be a good thing though.
Finding ways to prevent further escalations of tuition fees and improving upon the loan system would be good steps as well.

[Diopolis]

I don't think free university is a particularly good idea. Instead we need to do something about the overly high entry requirements for entry level jobs.
I do, however, think that free community college is a good thing in many cases.