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The Debate on Free College for America

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should college be completely free in America for students?

Yes.
58
49%
No.
34
29%
We need to find a “median”.
26
22%
 
Total votes : 118

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Cameroi
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Postby Cameroi » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:05 pm

useful knowledge is a public right, with or without the hoops of formal instruction.

poverty would not exist without making everything have to be about money.
or at least, how would you define it, without that context.
not saying it can't be, nor denying that there's a kind of 'economic' circulation that takes place in nature,
which is, incedentally, untouched by our concepts of symbolic value.

once upon a time, there was a great idea, it was called the community collage,
a tuition free alternative to expensive universities, to give intellegent and creative young people,
who's parents did not have mega-fortunes to burn.

that was, the whole point, of the community college alternative.

there are tradeoffs here. education is an investment, by a nation, ultimately in its own future and survival.
for a thousand years, called the mid evil, only the one percent could afford to do real scientific research,
and even they were at risk for their lives to do so.

imagine two worlds; one in which the industrial revolutions would have never happened, because the renasaunce never did,
or one in which those thousand years were never lost to the hatred of logic and thus no revolution was needed to make up for the time lost to them.

which would we rather have for a future?
some things depend on consensus, even when they're not directly and formally put to a vote.
this is one of them.
truth isn't what i say. isn't what you say. isn't what anybody says. truth is what is there, when no one is saying anything.

"economic freedom" is "the cake"
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:05 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
New haven america wrote:Yes, we get it already, you're angry that you can't say "Fuck off Brown People!"

Boohoo, cry me a river~

1. Actually there was a man arrested for simply conveying a conservative view on immigration. I'm sorry that certain rights are completely alien to you. Boohoo to you.
New haven america wrote:God, get new material, this shit's boring!

2. No, watching people getting triggered is boring.

1. 1 man out of... oh, 10,207,086 people. Something tells me he was doing more than just "Simply" conveying a conservative view. Always the victims now, aren't we?
2. Great, more worthless and unoriginal buzzwords. Your hivemind must be so proud.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:05 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:The cost of college has gone up faster than inflation. That suggests colleges are not operating efficiently and there is a lot of waste. Addressing this should be the first priority to make college more accessible and affordable.

Government subsidies have not been effective at keeping costs manageable, and I worry that further government subsidization will just lead to more administrative bloat and more people sitting through classes that they don't really get much out of, just because the classes are there and college is expected.

I say cut out the useless majors, and see how much administrative bloat that cuts. I still don't believe that it should be government funded though, as it will most defiantly result in higher taxes.


Administrative bloat is not typically tied to a specific major. If someone is teaching a course, that's not an administrative cost. I think you are taking your own cultural grievances and projecting them onto my post, even though it's not what I was talking about.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:07 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
New haven america wrote:Sweden gets you access to the entire Schengen Area, Canada does not.


But if I am living in Sweden or Canada, the only thing I'd be doing in the rest of the Schengen area is visiting -- which Canadians can do.

Yes, but it's cheaper to do in Sweden than in Canada.

Sweden lacks an entire ocean seperating it from the rest of Europe.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:10 pm

New haven america wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:Not sure how a conversation about whipping and caning children got in here, but that is not something schools should be doing.

We we're talking about who should earn more: K-12 teachers (Who can make less than $30k a year) or college professors (Who can easily earn over $100K). I said K-12 teacher because they're the ones responsible with taking care of and teaching younger kids (Who can be cruel, diminutive little creatures), in which that devolved into Das defending the idea that beating children is the best way to keep them in line and that I'm a spineless wuss for not agreeing (TBH, I have no idea where the latter part came from, because I never made my opinion on corporal punishment known until after he said that).

So yeah... Who do you think should earn more?


I don't think there should be a huge difference for the most part, though I could see paying more for the best college professors that have a truly exceptional knowledge of their field. K-12 have to deal with some special challenges managing unruly students, but college professors require a more extensive knowledge of the subjects they're teaching, which means they require a high level of training.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:12 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:I say cut out the useless majors, and see how much administrative bloat that cuts. I still don't believe that it should be government funded though, as it will most defiantly result in higher taxes.


Administrative bloat is not typically tied to a specific major. If someone is teaching a course, that's not an administrative cost. I think you are taking your own cultural grievances and projecting them onto my post, even though it's not what I was talking about.

You're probably partially right, sorry. How do you propose cutting costs? There will always be a large amount of classes.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:14 pm

New haven america wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
But if I am living in Sweden or Canada, the only thing I'd be doing in the rest of the Schengen area is visiting -- which Canadians can do.

Yes, but it's cheaper to do in Sweden than in Canada.

Sweden lacks an entire ocean seperating it from the rest of Europe.

The US and Canada have about as much geographical diversity as Europe anyway, so why cross the pond?
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:18 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Administrative bloat is not typically tied to a specific major. If someone is teaching a course, that's not an administrative cost. I think you are taking your own cultural grievances and projecting them onto my post, even though it's not what I was talking about.

You're probably partially right, sorry. How do you propose cutting costs? There will always be a large amount of classes.


Fundamentally review what the role and purpose of education is anyway.. I mean I'd happily argue that geography, economics and history are essentially one subject - creating context of understanding.

I mean it's great I know how to use a plastic triangle thing for maths but apparently teaching me to run a business or manage my life is not in the domain of education. The history and format of education derives from what makes a learned gentleman eligible for a position of power and marriage, reserved mostly for the rich. That was transposed down into mass education, a means to occupy children in a mass factory economy.. and we've yet to evolve into modern requirements.

I mean.. even summer holidays are a layover from agricultural economies when children were needed for harvest time.

Oh for a magic wand..
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:18 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
New haven america wrote:We we're talking about who should earn more: K-12 teachers (Who can make less than $30k a year) or college professors (Who can easily earn over $100K). I said K-12 teacher because they're the ones responsible with taking care of and teaching younger kids (Who can be cruel, diminutive little creatures), in which that devolved into Das defending the idea that beating children is the best way to keep them in line and that I'm a spineless wuss for not agreeing (TBH, I have no idea where the latter part came from, because I never made my opinion on corporal punishment known until after he said that).

So yeah... Who do you think should earn more?


I don't think there should be a huge difference for the most part, though I could see paying more for the best college professors that have a truly exceptional knowledge of their field. K-12 have to deal with some special challenges managing unruly students, but college professors require a more extensive knowledge of the subjects they're teaching, which means they require a high level of training.

Yeah... but then this brought us into the topic of "Do they really know more?"

Being a college professor can be stupidly easy, all you gotta do is repeat what your textbooks say, I've had professors who've done that, which required me to go out and learn from outside sources because they're not really doing the job I'm paying them to do. You can't really do that in K-12 schools, you have to be attentive all the time.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:19 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
New haven america wrote:Yes, but it's cheaper to do in Sweden than in Canada.

Sweden lacks an entire ocean seperating it from the rest of Europe.

The US and Canada have about as much geographical diversity as Europe anyway, so why cross the pond?

The quality of life issues we were just talking about a few posts ago.
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Nolo gap
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Postby Nolo gap » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:24 pm

a nation without an educated populus is on the third world express.

whatever people want is whatever people want,
just that short sighted greed has its very material world kharmic price.

today is the future you (all of us) created yesterday.
what you don't think about, is what you get.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:27 pm

Bombadil wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:You're probably partially right, sorry. How do you propose cutting costs? There will always be a large amount of classes.


Fundamentally review what the role and purpose of education is anyway.. I mean I'd happily argue that geography, economics and history are essentially one subject - creating context of understanding.

I mean it's great I know how to use a plastic triangle thing for maths but apparently teaching me to run a business or manage my life is not in the domain of education. The history and format of education derives from what makes a learned gentleman eligible for a position of power and marriage, reserved mostly for the rich. That was transposed down into mass education, a means to occupy children in a mass factory economy.. and we've yet to evolve into modern requirements.

I mean.. even summer holidays are a layover from agricultural economies when children were needed for harvest time.

Oh for a magic wand..

I partially agree. Much of the setup of education is out of date to say the least.

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Petrolheadia
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Postby Petrolheadia » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:28 pm

New haven america wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:The US and Canada have about as much geographical diversity as Europe anyway, so why cross the pond?

The quality of life issues we were just talking about a few posts ago.

IKEA also sells in the US.
Nolo gap wrote:a nation without an educated populus is on the third world express.

whatever people want is whatever people want,
just that short sighted greed has its very material world kharmic price.

today is the future you (all of us) created yesterday.
what you don't think about, is what you get.

Nobody really suggested there should not be higher education, just that people should pay for it.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:32 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
New haven america wrote:The quality of life issues we were just talking about a few posts ago.

IKEA also sells in the US.

But we don't get the good IKEA Swedish Meatballs.

We get their crappy American counterparts, and that's just inhumane.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:40 pm

New haven america wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
But if I am living in Sweden or Canada, the only thing I'd be doing in the rest of the Schengen area is visiting -- which Canadians can do.

Yes, but it's cheaper to do in Sweden than in Canada.

Sweden lacks an entire ocean seperating it from the rest of Europe.


And traveling within North America is cheaper to do from Canada. What's your point?

If we're deciding where to live based on the availability of cheap travel opportunities, I want to live in South America or Asia. But that is getting into personal preferences that have nothing to do with the economic or social stability of society.

This has really drifted away from the topic of the quality of life within Sweden or Canada.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:41 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Fundamentally review what the role and purpose of education is anyway.. I mean I'd happily argue that geography, economics and history are essentially one subject - creating context of understanding.

I mean it's great I know how to use a plastic triangle thing for maths but apparently teaching me to run a business or manage my life is not in the domain of education. The history and format of education derives from what makes a learned gentleman eligible for a position of power and marriage, reserved mostly for the rich. That was transposed down into mass education, a means to occupy children in a mass factory economy.. and we've yet to evolve into modern requirements.

I mean.. even summer holidays are a layover from agricultural economies when children were needed for harvest time.

Oh for a magic wand..

I partially agree. Much of the setup of education is out of date to say the least.


At many different levels, as I've said before the question of whether America can or should educate its population is moot, It can and should do both. The issue is that education (and further government itself) is out of date, full of bolt on departments and administration, archaic in process and technology and designed for the 19th century not the 21st.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:42 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
New haven america wrote:Yes, but it's cheaper to do in Sweden than in Canada.

Sweden lacks an entire ocean seperating it from the rest of Europe.


And traveling within North America is cheaper to do from Canada. What's your point?

If we're deciding where to live based on the availability of cheap travel opportunities, I want to live in South America or Asia. But that is getting into personal preferences that have nothing to do with the economic or social stability of society.

This has really drifted away from the topic of the quality of life within Sweden or Canada.


Yes.. for someone asking the relevance of corporal punishment in schools to see you now..

..and I think you mean it's drifted away from the topic of free education.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:44 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Administrative bloat is not typically tied to a specific major. If someone is teaching a course, that's not an administrative cost. I think you are taking your own cultural grievances and projecting them onto my post, even though it's not what I was talking about.

You're probably partially right, sorry. How do you propose cutting costs? There will always be a large amount of classes.


Colleges were more efficient in the past, so look at what was different back then.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:50 pm

It will always be a more worthy use of public money to support the welfare of working people, families, and those teetering on poverty's edge, than it will be to throw money down the black hole of offering every mediocre Malcolm and Mandy a free course in Lesbian Dance Theory. Not everyone requires or is suited for a college education. It's not in the community interest. Where the economy has specific needs and skills shortages, offer grants and scholarships to those who have demonstrated some level of potential. Be specific and targeted.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:53 pm

New haven america wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:The US and Canada have about as much geographical diversity as Europe anyway, so why cross the pond?

The quality of life issues we were just talking about a few posts ago.


Which are entirely subjective.

I kind of hate the idea that "quality of life" is quantifiable in the first place, but especially when you're comparing two developed countries.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
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Fostoria
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Postby Fostoria » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:55 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It will always be a more worthy use of public money to support the welfare of working people, families, and those teetering on poverty's edge, than it will be to throw money down the black hole of offering every mediocre Malcolm and Mandy a free course in Lesbian Dance Theory. Not everyone requires or is suited for a college education. It's not in the community interest. Where the economy has specific needs and skills shortages, offer grants and scholarships to those who have demonstrated some level of potential. Be specific and targeted.


This to the fullest degree. The government should take steps to make sure college is reasonably affordable, but free college for everyone (paid for by working peoples' tax money) is going too far

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Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:58 pm

If someone can complete their college education in three years, then they should definitely get it for free. Someone who neither makes good grades nor attempts to seems rather unlikely to truly want to go to college for anything other than parties or to please someone else. I do not understand why government prioritizes funding mass killings over education, research, or foreign/humanitarian aid. The capability to increase education, lower illiteracy, accelerate new knowledge, and lower poverty and illiteracy worldwide has been achieved to an extent, yet many consider it immoral to not focus on killing people and preventing others from escaping some violence and poverty. I do not understand why the cost of higher education increased faster than median income either. I suppose it is an improvement from illiteracy and families encouraging children to drop out less than a century ago.

As to the concerns of students with poor academics (and poor athletics, because good athletics=free college) leeching off the system and taking seven years of free college to get a degree, the current probability of that group dropping out of school before college shows that they often do not wish to even attempt the currently free schooling.
Last edited by Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio on Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Das Redner
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Postby Das Redner » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:00 am

Fostoria wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:It will always be a more worthy use of public money to support the welfare of working people, families, and those teetering on poverty's edge, than it will be to throw money down the black hole of offering every mediocre Malcolm and Mandy a free course in Lesbian Dance Theory. Not everyone requires or is suited for a college education. It's not in the community interest. Where the economy has specific needs and skills shortages, offer grants and scholarships to those who have demonstrated some level of potential. Be specific and targeted.


This to the fullest degree. The government should take steps to make sure college is reasonably affordable, but free college for everyone (paid for by working peoples' tax money) is going too far


Agreed. I’m not against affordable or “fairly discounted” college, but totally free should be out of the question. Perhaps pour more government funds into financial aid programs.
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New haven america
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:04 am

USS Monitor wrote:
New haven america wrote:The quality of life issues we were just talking about a few posts ago.


Which are entirely subjective.

I kind of hate the idea that "quality of life" is quantifiable in the first place, but especially when you're comparing two developed countries.

It's totally quantifiable.

For example, if you have to go to the hospital in Sweden and you don't have health insurance... well, that's not a thing that happens, because everyone has health insurance because it's considered a right and all of your costs will be covered. Meanwhile in the US, if you have to go to the hospital and you don't have health insurance you can either let the problem fester and possibly die because you can't afford treatment, or wish you were dead because you went to the hospital and saw your medical bill which can easily cost more than a house.

Which system seems better?
Last edited by New haven america on Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:13 am

New haven america wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Which are entirely subjective.

I kind of hate the idea that "quality of life" is quantifiable in the first place, but especially when you're comparing two developed countries.

It's totally quantifiable.

For example, if you have to go to the hospital in Sweden and you don't have health insurance... well, that's not a thing that happens, because everyone has health insurance because it's considered a right and all of your costs will be covered. Meanwhile in the US, if you have to go to the hospital and you don't have health insurance you can either let the problem fester and possibly die because you can't afford treatment, or wish you were dead because you went to the hospital and saw your medical bill which can easily cost more than a house.

Which system seems better?

Why don't you just buy insurance, or go to a charity. They exist you know. Don't make society pay for your mistake to not buy insurance.

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