NationStates

The UK and EU have just recently agreed to a draft deal on future relations after The UK will break off of the European Union(Brexit) but were met with some resistance.

The resistance came all the way from Spain, as the Spanish government accused Theresa May and the British government of treachery. The problem is that Spain was not included in the talks of what will happen to the British overseas territory of Gibraltar, located off the coast of Spain. According to Spanish PM Pedro Sanchez, Spain will reject the plan, if no concessions are made. Also, Spain will soon go to vote against the current draft of the Brexit deal that was discussed with British and European officials, claiming that Spain should always be included in talks over the future of Gibraltar. Spain alone cannot bring down the Brexit deal but with the help of other countries such as France, The Netherlands etc... who also are not too happy about the terms of the current draft, negotiations could be slowed dramatically and even halted.

Should Spain have a part in discussions about a territory they haven't had power over for hundreds of years? How does it affect them?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-latest-spain-vote-against-gibraltar-theresa-may-negotiations-a8646676.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/22/inenglish/1542894876_529266.html

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

I think that Spain does not need to be present in such talks. Because they really have nothing to do with Gibraltar except the fact that the official language of Gibraltar is Spanish. If they really want to be present in these talks, they should have more a reason than the fact that it's off their shore.

Spain, pulling a fast one? Whose surprised at that?

And they’re pulling an Argentina, because that always works so well. For the British PM who takes a hardline stance...are they trying to keep May in power or something?

Gibraltar is British territory, no matter what. Britain is in control of whether they leave or not, other EU nations should not be able to interfere with such choice.

New Excalibus wrote:Gibraltar is British territory, no matter what. Britain is in control of whether they leave or not, other EU nations should not be able to interfere with such choice.

Good point but,
What about if Gibraltar asks not to leave the EU but its considerations are not taken seriously by British officials? Spanish officials are saying that the UK shouldn't control what Gibraltar wants to do. Gibraltar really hasn't had their opinion heard. I guess it's now their turn to speak up.

Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain. As for Brexit, some kerfuffle over the status of Gibraltar is the least of its worries. The UK government ought to be more concerned about its own Ministers who shouted Teresa May down yesterday. By far the best way to handle that would be to take a revote to undo the whole tainted business and let it drop once and for all.

Eduriania wrote:

New Excalibus wrote:Gibraltar is British territory, no matter what. Britain is in control of whether they leave or not, other EU nations should not be able to interfere with such choice.

Good point but,
What about if Gibraltar asks not to leave the EU but its considerations are not taken seriously by British officials? Spanish officials are saying that the UK shouldn't control what Gibraltar wants to do. Gibraltar really hasn't had their opinion heard. I guess it's now their turn to speak up.

Nonetheless, Britain has a choice if Gibraltar will have a say in this. Not Spain, Britain.

Eduriania wrote:-snip-

Gibraltar's official language is not Spanish. Its English.

Furthermore, Spain should be included in the talks because the border issue is a proper contentious issue between Britain and Spain. Spain only opened its borders to Gibraltar after the dictatorship of General Franco because Spain wanted EEC membership.

Do I agree with Spain's decision to bring down the entirety of an agreement? No.

Was it expected? Absolutely. Except if you voted for Brexit, of course, in which case everything was going to be fine.

Dooom35796821595 wrote:Spain, pulling a fast one? Whose surprised at that?

No one in Gibraltar!

New Excalibus wrote:Gibraltar is British territory, no matter what. Britain is in control of whether they leave or not, other EU nations should not be able to interfere with such choice.

Can I count Britain dragging us out of the European Union as interfering with our choice?

Eduriania wrote:

New Excalibus wrote:Gibraltar is British territory, no matter what. Britain is in control of whether they leave or not, other EU nations should not be able to interfere with such choice.

Good point but,
What about if Gibraltar asks not to leave the EU but its considerations are not taken seriously by British officials? Spanish officials are saying that the UK shouldn't control what Gibraltar wants to do. Gibraltar really hasn't had their opinion heard. I guess it's now their turn to speak up.

Spanish officials are contesting the viability of any deal between the EU and the UK that involves Gibraltar in the future. They don't want that. Spain is in the 'best' position of power its been in relation to this issue in decades. They want more of a say in the involvement of Gibraltar's future; as they've tried to secure through claiming its theirs, joint-sovereignty, etc.

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

What about all the referendums we've done in favour of remaining part of Britain?

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain. As for Brexit, some kerfuffle over the status of Gibraltar is the least of its worries. The UK government ought to be more concerned about its own Ministers who shouted Teresa May down yesterday. By far the best way to handle that would be to take a revote to undo the whole tainted business and let it drop once and for all.

Well, I would say yes to that! Internal problems should be at the top of their worries right now. As for Gibraltar being returned to Spain... Idk. It has been a British territory since the 18th century. Spain is still butthurt that Britain defeated them and took Gibraltar in 1713? It's not that big of an asset anyways, leave it to Britain.

Eduriania wrote:

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain. As for Brexit, some kerfuffle over the status of Gibraltar is the least of its worries. The UK government ought to be more concerned about its own Ministers who shouted Teresa May down yesterday. By far the best way to handle that would be to take a revote to undo the whole tainted business and let it drop once and for all.

Well, I would say yes to that! Internal problems should be at the top of their worries right now. As for Gibraltar being returned to Spain... Idk. It has been a British territory since the 18th century. Spain is still butthurt that Britain defeated them and took Gibraltar in 1713? It's not that big of an asset anyways, leave it to Britain.

Why do all these conditions matter more than the referendums we've had on the issue?

Liecthenbourg wrote:

Eduriania wrote:-snip-

Gibraltar's official language is not Spanish. Its English.

Sorry. Unofficial Significant language.

Liecthenbourg wrote:Why do all these conditions matter more than the referendums we've had on the issue?

What matters is not whether Gibraltar belongs to Spain or the UK, it's how Spain is taking it. They threatened to pull out of the Brexit deal over this issue, this could put the deal in a difficult situation.

Eduriania wrote:

Liecthenbourg wrote:Why do all these conditions matter more than the referendums we've had on the issue?

What matters is not whether Gibraltar belongs to Spain or the UK, it's how Spain is taking it. They threatened to pull out of the Brexit deal over this issue, this could put the deal in a difficult situation.

I was replying, specifically, to your notion that Gibraltar shouldn't be returned to Spain because Britain has held us since the 18th century. That's not important. What's important is that the issue was voted on, and it was voted in favour of British sovereignty.

I certainly agree with you, Spain is taking this badly. But it was to be expected. It was naive to not think that this would happen.

Hopefully the European Union will be able to reign in Spain, but I really don't know.

Eduriania wrote:

Liecthenbourg wrote:Why do all these conditions matter more than the referendums we've had on the issue?

What matters is not whether Gibraltar belongs to Spain or the UK, it's how Spain is taking it. They threatened to pull out of the Brexit deal over this issue, this could put the deal in a difficult situation.

Oh well. Sucks for Spain.

At this point I’d just go hard no deal and say fuck it

I've said the same on the Falklands to Argentina and will say the same to Spain. Get over it or go fuck yourself, preferably both.

Whatever thoughts on brexit may be Spain trying to use it to gain leverage on Gibraltar is stupid.

Heloin wrote:I've said the same on the Falklands to Argentina and will say the same to Spain. Get over it or go fuck yourself, preferably both.

Whatever thoughts on brexit may be Spain trying to use it to gain leverage on Gibraltar is stupid.

Exactly. If Spain wants to trade Valencia or something then that'll be more fair. Spain at least has a *slightly* better claim as, unlike Argentina, Spain owned the land before Britain IIRC but if Spain wants to cry about anti-colonialism then it can start by freeing Catalonia.

Eduriania wrote:British overseas territory of Gibraltar, located off the coast of Spain.

It's not "off the coast". It's "on the coast", as they share a land border.

Should Spain have a part in discussions about a territory they haven't had power over for hundreds of years? How does it affect them?

They are an EU member country so they are to discuss the post-Brexit EU-UK treaty. Also, they have a land border with Gibraltar so yeah, the status of Gibraltar affects them.

They’re just gonna do what Germany tells them to do anyway, so why don’t they stop having a hissy fit about a small enclave of British territory?
Their arguement is made even more absurd by their ownership of Ceuta and Melilla.

Izaakia wrote:They’re just gonna do what Germany tells them to do anyway, so why don’t they stop having a hissy fit about a small enclave of British territory?
Their arguement is made even more absurd by their ownership of Ceuta and Melilla.

I don't see Spain leaving the African Union while asking for free benefits such as free trade with Morocco at the moment.

Risottia wrote:

Izaakia wrote:They’re just gonna do what Germany tells them to do anyway, so why don’t they stop having a hissy fit about a small enclave of British territory?
Their arguement is made even more absurd by their ownership of Ceuta and Melilla.

I don't see Spain leaving the African Union while asking for free benefits such as free trade with Morocco at the moment.

Ofcourse, that would never happen because, even if they did join the AU, the Spanish wouldnt accept the democratic will of their own people if they wanted to leave.

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

Gibraltar is British and will stay that way. They had a referendum to decide their fate several years ago, the result was conclusive. If Spain ever tries to take it by force then I hope they enjoy getting shelled from the top of The Rock...

Izaakia wrote:

Risottia wrote:I don't see Spain leaving the African Union while asking for free benefits such as free trade with Morocco at the moment.

Ofcourse, that would never happen because, even if they did join the AU, the Spanish wouldnt accept the democratic will of their own people if they wanted to leave.

Depends. If they tried to get a secession by unconstitutional means, like the Catalans, most likely they wouldn't be allowed.

The New California Republic wrote:

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

Gibraltar is British and will stay that way. They had a referendum to decide their fate several years ago, the result was conclusive. If Spain ever tries to take it by force then I hope they enjoy getting shelled from the top of The Rock...

Spain isn't trying to take Gibraltar right now. They of course don't want the Brits and Bruxelles rule over one of their land borders without their say being considered crucial.

Risottia wrote:

Izaakia wrote:
Ofcourse, that would never happen because, even if they did join the AU, the Spanish wouldnt accept the democratic will of their own people if they wanted to leave.

Depends. If they tried to get a secession by unconstitutional means, like the Catalans, most likely they wouldn't be allowed.

The Spanish government doesn’t recognise the right to self dermination, it’s because the regions that don’t want to Spanish have the money. They’re counter democratic.

Risottia wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:Gibraltar is British and will stay that way. They had a referendum to decide their fate several years ago, the result was conclusive. If Spain ever tries to take it by force then I hope they enjoy getting shelled from the top of The Rock...

Spain isn't trying to take Gibraltar right now.just wait They of course don't want the Brits and Bruxelles rule over one of their land borders without their say being considered crucial.

If they tried to get a secession by unconstitutional means, like the Catalans - you give them nothing other than 'unconstitutional means' to seek independence

apart from this Gibraltar bit(which I'm ok with as Gib's happy with it - are there any viable parts to this 'agreement' that May is trying to push through?

- It doesn't even deal with fishing- that should be fun and games.

To be honest, as much as I feel that Britain should be prohibited from ever joining the EU when they do leave, or if they do join, have no opt-outs, I feel that the Gibraltarians have a right to decide whether to be British or not.

Maybe the optimal solution is hold two referenda for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland on whether to stay in the EU, or leave: if they choose to stay in the EU, they will return to Spain and Ireland respectively, while if they want to leave, they will stay under British administration.