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Gibraltar and Brexit Thread

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Estanglia
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Postby Estanglia » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 am

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

But what if they don't want to be returned?
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:47 am

Estanglia wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

But what if they don't want to be returned?

The Spanish will forcibly deport them all to make room for loyal Spanish families.

/s.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Izaakia
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Postby Izaakia » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:05 am

Luziyca wrote:To be honest, as much as I feel that Britain should be prohibited from ever joining the EU when they do leave, or if they do join, have no opt-outs, I feel that the Gibraltarians have a right to decide whether to be British or not.

Maybe the optimal solution is hold two referenda for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland on whether to stay in the EU, or leave: if they choose to stay in the EU, they will return to Spain and Ireland respectively, while if they want to leave, they will stay under British administration.


As absurd as that sounds, the Northern Irish have that option under the good Friday agreement, but loyalists still have the majority so there won’t be a referendum.
Plus gibraltar will 100% choose Britain over the EU and Spain.
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Eduriania
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Postby Eduriania » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:50 pm

https://news.sky.com/story/spain-threatens-to-call-off-sundays-eu-summit-on-brexit-over-gibraltar-row-11561594


Spanish PM Pedro Sanchez says he will likely not participate at the next EU summit on Brexit, scheduled to take place Sunday. This could really slow down the process of Brexit, canceling an important [European] Union summit.

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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:12 pm

Izaakia wrote:They’re just gonna do what Germany tells them to do anyway, so why don’t they stop having a hissy fit about a small enclave of British territory?
Their arguement is made even more absurd by their ownership of Ceuta and Melilla.


Ceuta and Melilla have been under Spanish control for centuries. Even Morocco did not exist back then.
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:22 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain.

Gibraltar is British and will stay that way. They had a referendum to decide their fate several years ago, the result was conclusive. If Spain ever tries to take it by force then I hope they enjoy getting shelled from the top of The Rock...


Neither Spain or the UK. will go at it militarily. There are at least 750.000 UKers. living in Spain. The Spanish rather have most of them live happily in Spain spending there retirement checks. Also, 17 millon UK. tourists visit Spain a year. And the UK. rather not have there citizens in Spain be at risk. It would be politically bad back in the UK.
Last edited by Rio Cana on Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:52 pm

US-SSR wrote:Gibraltar is no more British territory than was Hong Kong, it is a relic of colonialism that should be returned to Spain. As for Brexit, some kerfuffle over the status of Gibraltar is the least of its worries. The UK government ought to be more concerned about its own Ministers who shouted Teresa May down yesterday. By far the best way to handle that would be to take a revote to undo the whole tainted business and let it drop once and for all.
Handing 'back' Hong Kong to a brutal 'communist' dictatorship was never a good idea, if anything it was another one of Thatcher's great betrayals for short-term political gain, if her support of Pinochet wasn't bad enough. Hong Kong is losing it's freedoms bit by bit, till it is just another outpost of the Chinese police state. They are in no way the same, in terms of a dispute either, as the UK never implied Hong Kong wasn't Chinese. It should have gone to Taiwan instead, if any part of China deserved it back, as they value human rights and political freedom there. Spain and the UK are also both democratic societies with freedom of speech and expression for starters. So it isn't like if Gibraltar was handed over the people would suffer, unlike the poor people of Hong Kong, who thanks to the UK in 50 years will live in a police state with the rest of those behind the great firewall.

Though in the end, Gibraltar, like the Falklands, is non-negotiable. It is a political tool in Spain, but it is never 'going back'.

It would absurd from a historical and diplomatic standpoint as well. If Spain thinks that it can re-negotiate sovereign borders, there are equally 'credible' claims, and even more credible claims on the following:
1) Napoleanic Spain. Surely Spain should give it back to it's 'rightful owners' the French people.
2) Pre-WW1 and Post WW2 Germany. Poland and Russia better give it all back.
3) Pre WW2 Poland. Pretty sure Russia has no rights to it, being occupied and forced to by Stalin and all.
4) The British Empire. I mean why not just claim parts of India and the American colonies, as they did hold it for 200 odd years.

The moment nations bring up 'old wounds', and rail against another country about 'stealing it' because of something that happened a long time ago, it only leads to a never-ending list of disputes.

Spain should give up the absurd idea about reclaiming something it hasn't held for 300 years or more, unless it is seriously contemplating war to 'get it back', which is even more stupid a decision.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:00 pm

Risottia wrote:
Izaakia wrote:
Ofcourse, that would never happen because, even if they did join the AU, the Spanish wouldnt accept the democratic will of their own people if they wanted to leave.

Depends. If they tried to get a secession by unconstitutional means, like the Catalans, most likely they wouldn't be allowed.

We aren't allowed one by the Constitution. The right to self determination on a local level is illegal on that scale.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:15 pm

New Rogernomics wrote:Handing 'back' Hong Kong to a brutal 'communist' dictatorship was never a good idea, if anything it was another one of Thatcher's great betrayals for short-term political gain, if her support of Pinochet wasn't bad enough. Hong Kong is losing it's freedoms bit by bit, till it is just another outpost of the Chinese police state. They are in no way the same, in terms of a dispute either, as the UK never implied Hong Kong wasn't Chinese. It should have gone to Taiwan instead, if any part of China deserved it back, as they value human rights and political freedom there. Spain and the UK are also both democratic societies with freedom of speech and expression for starters. So it isn't like if Gibraltar was handed over the people would suffer, unlike the poor people of Hong Kong, who thanks to the UK in 50 years will live in a police state with the rest of those behind the great firewall.

To be honest I always considered the Hong Kong transfer to be a really shitty thing to do. Sure there is (possibly was at this point...) the one country two systems agreement, but quite frankly the recent developments have shown that agreement is worthless, China has been shitting all over it for the past few years. Hong Kong should have remained in British control, if only to protect the rights of Hong Kong citizens. They could have had a referendum to decide. That would have been the best possible outcome. Sure, China likely would have cried foul, but if the referendum was free and fair then there is very little China could have done short of invasion, since the international community would have seen that Britain was trying to be as fair as possible by giving the people of Hong Kong a say.

New Rogernomics wrote:Though in the end, Gibraltar, like the Falklands, is non-negotiable. It is a political tool in Spain, but it is never 'going back'. ... Spain should give up the absurd idea about reclaiming something it hasn't held for 300 years or more, unless it is seriously contemplating war to 'get it back', which is even more stupid a decision.

Exactly. Spain makes such a fuss about Gibraltar, when in reality it is doubtful that they really give a shit about it; and they likely wouldn't know what to do with it even if they had it back, because such a long period of time has passed since the Spanish actually controlled it. Gibraltar is a convenient political football that Spain uses whenever it needs to distract the populace from something else.

New Rogernomics wrote:It would absurd from a historical and diplomatic standpoint as well. If Spain thinks that it can re-negotiate sovereign borders, there are equally 'credible' claims, and even more credible claims on the following:
1) Napoleanic Spain. Surely Spain should give it back to it's 'rightful owners' the French people.
2) Pre-WW1 and Post WW2 Germany. Poland and Russia better give it all back.
3) Post WW2 Poland. Pretty sure Russia has no rights to it, being occupied and forced to by Stalin and all.

Yup. The borders of Europe have shifted so much over the past 100 years or so that the borders on century-old European maps are nigh on unrecognisable in many places. You'd think that the huge tracts of territory that have been ceded in Europe over the years—huge areas that make Gibraltar look pathetic by comparison—would be the bigger issue; but clearly not...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:38 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
New Rogernomics wrote:It would absurd from a historical and diplomatic standpoint as well. If Spain thinks that it can re-negotiate sovereign borders, there are equally 'credible' claims, and even more credible claims on the following:
1) Napoleanic Spain. Surely Spain should give it back to it's 'rightful owners' the French people.
2) Pre-WW1 and Post WW2 Germany. Poland and Russia better give it all back.
3) Post WW2 Poland. Pretty sure Russia has no rights to it, being occupied and forced to by Stalin and all.

Yup. The borders of Europe have shifted so much over the past 100 years or so that the borders on century-old European maps are nigh on unrecognisable in many places. You'd think that the huge tracts of territory that have been ceded in Europe over the years—huge areas that make Gibraltar look pathetic by comparison—would be the bigger issue; but clearly not...

I guess all of the Mediterranean goes back to Italy, Rome rises again!
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Gibraltar should grow larger. It is better off than spanish mainland which is ruled by corrupt asshats.
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Ammaroth
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Postby Ammaroth » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:59 pm

The New California Republic wrote:To be honest I always considered the Hong Kong transfer to be a really shitty thing to do. Sure there is (possibly was at this point...) the one country two systems agreement, but quite frankly the recent developments have shown that agreement is worthless, China has been shitting all over it for the past few years. Hong Kong should have remained in British control, if only to protect the rights of Hong Kong citizens. They could have had a referendum to decide. That would have been the best possible outcome. Sure, China likely would have cried foul, but if the referendum was free and fair then there is very little China could have done short of invasion, since the international community would have seen that Britain was trying to be as fair as possible by giving the people of Hong Kong a say.


Thing is though, we HAD to give Hong Kong back because we were only legally allowed to own it until 1997. We signed a 99 year lease for Hong Kong with China back in the 1800s and the lease was expiring. If we hadn't given it back we technically would have been illegally occupying sovereign Chinese land and China would actually have been within its rights to get the UN involved in getting it back or even worse, take it back by force.
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:07 pm

Ammaroth wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:To be honest I always considered the Hong Kong transfer to be a really shitty thing to do. Sure there is (possibly was at this point...) the one country two systems agreement, but quite frankly the recent developments have shown that agreement is worthless, China has been shitting all over it for the past few years. Hong Kong should have remained in British control, if only to protect the rights of Hong Kong citizens. They could have had a referendum to decide. That would have been the best possible outcome. Sure, China likely would have cried foul, but if the referendum was free and fair then there is very little China could have done short of invasion, since the international community would have seen that Britain was trying to be as fair as possible by giving the people of Hong Kong a say.


Thing is though, we HAD to give Hong Kong back because we were only legally allowed to own it until 1997. We signed a 99 year lease for Hong Kong with China back in the 1800s and the lease was expiring. If we hadn't given it back we technically would have been illegally occupying sovereign Chinese land and China would actually have been within its rights to get the UN involved in getting it back or even worse, take it back by force.


I’m sure we could have found some technicality for not giving it back. Like not recognising Communist China as the legitimate China we signed the agreement with, and agreeing a new agreement with Taiwan.
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Postby Novus America » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:39 pm

Ammaroth wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:To be honest I always considered the Hong Kong transfer to be a really shitty thing to do. Sure there is (possibly was at this point...) the one country two systems agreement, but quite frankly the recent developments have shown that agreement is worthless, China has been shitting all over it for the past few years. Hong Kong should have remained in British control, if only to protect the rights of Hong Kong citizens. They could have had a referendum to decide. That would have been the best possible outcome. Sure, China likely would have cried foul, but if the referendum was free and fair then there is very little China could have done short of invasion, since the international community would have seen that Britain was trying to be as fair as possible by giving the people of Hong Kong a say.


Thing is though, we HAD to give Hong Kong back because we were only legally allowed to own it until 1997. We signed a 99 year lease for Hong Kong with China back in the 1800s and the lease was expiring. If we hadn't given it back we technically would have been illegally occupying sovereign Chinese land and China would actually have been within its rights to get the UN involved in getting it back or even worse, take it back by force.


Actually you only had to give back the New Territories, not Hong Kong Island.
But China would have probably taken it by force.
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Postby New haven america » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:48 pm

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Ammaroth wrote:
Thing is though, we HAD to give Hong Kong back because we were only legally allowed to own it until 1997. We signed a 99 year lease for Hong Kong with China back in the 1800s and the lease was expiring. If we hadn't given it back we technically would have been illegally occupying sovereign Chinese land and China would actually have been within its rights to get the UN involved in getting it back or even worse, take it back by force.


I’m sure we could have found some technicality for not giving it back. Like not recognising Communist China as the legitimate China we signed the agreement with, and agreeing a new agreement with Taiwan.

I'm pretty sure that would just lead to China invading Taiwan, tbh. Considering at the time Hong Kong economy alone was ~25% of China's entire economy, they weren't willing to lose any possibility of taking it and Macau (Note to readers: Macau had a different agreement as it was owned by Portugal, but in the 1900's China wanted both Hong Kong and Macau) back as they would've really boosted China's economic power.

So if they did make a new agreement with Taiwan, chances are China would have invaded Taiwan and taken back Hong Kong by force.
Last edited by New haven america on Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:18 pm

New haven america wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
I’m sure we could have found some technicality for not giving it back. Like not recognising Communist China as the legitimate China we signed the agreement with, and agreeing a new agreement with Taiwan.

I'm pretty sure that would just lead to China invading Taiwan, tbh. Considering at the time Hong Kong economy alone was ~25% of China's entire economy, they weren't willing to lose any possibility of taking it and Macau (Note to readers: Macau had a different agreement as it was owned by Portugal, but in the 1900's China wanted both Hong Kong and Macau) back as they would've really boosted China's economic power.

So if they did make a new agreement with Taiwan, chances are China would have invaded Taiwan and taken back Hong Kong by force.
Well, that's the problem. They would have to take it. It isn't as simple as just military force. If they had invaded, it would have meant international sanctions and US intervention (under NATO), and the Falklands war was still pretty fresh, so the British government would have no leeway to back down. The first would have totally tanked the Chinese economy, and the second...well China was far worse off militarily in 1997 than in 2018. Even today their navy is still substantially inferior to the United States, and they lack the logistics to fight unless it is directly off their mainland, and of course the US can rely on support from NATO and all their naval assets too.

I don't see military intervention as plausible. Even today with Taiwan, the whole hypothetical Hong Kong issue aside. It literally can't be feasibly invaded by PRL. There is only a few months in the year when the strait is passable, and it is pretty much foggy. I can't entirely get into it, but all the US needs to do is use it's sizable submarine fleet, and all Taiwan needs is a Typhoon, and that PRL invasion fleet would sink to the bottom. There would no doubt be heavy civilian casualties in Taiwan, but if the PRL can't land troops, they have effectively lost. It is really difficult for them, which is why they haven't tried already.

Generally though, since the Falklands, the UK public is entirely resistant to any idea of 'returning territories', and it would be political suicide to do so.

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Chowkaria
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Postby Chowkaria » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:36 pm

What about Cyprus? There are two British enclaves there.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:14 am

Here's how to properly do Brexit: pull all diplomats, politicians, etc. out of European bureaucracies, and declare yourself independent on basis of national sovereignty.

None of this treaty nonsense.
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Ammaroth
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Postby Ammaroth » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:07 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:Here's how to properly do Brexit: pull all diplomats, politicians, etc. out of European bureaucracies, and declare yourself independent on basis of national sovereignty.

None of this treaty nonsense.



If by "properly" you mean do it the absolute worst way it can possibly be done.
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Izaakia
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Postby Izaakia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:35 am

Rio Cana wrote:
Izaakia wrote:They’re just gonna do what Germany tells them to do anyway, so why don’t they stop having a hissy fit about a small enclave of British territory?
Their arguement is made even more absurd by their ownership of Ceuta and Melilla.


Ceuta and Melilla have been under Spanish control for centuries. Even Morocco did not exist back then.


And we’ve owned Gibraltar for 314 years and Spain signed it over in treaty soon after. It’s 3 years older than our country, it was English before the U.K. was a thing
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:59 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:Here's how to properly do Brexit: pull all diplomats, politicians, etc. out of European bureaucracies, and declare yourself independent on basis of national sovereignty.

None of this treaty nonsense.

You want to pay toll fees on groceries and toilet paper? Because that's how you get toll fees and customs inspections on groceries and toilet paper when there's a hard EU border separating you from your local supermarket. Also, you want to stop giving diplomatic recognition to the rest of Europe, and for them to do the same in return? Imagine if European cities from Lisbon to Narva and from Tromsö to Malta stopped recognising British passports as a valid document.
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Nazis in Space
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Postby Nazis in Space » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:29 am

If Spain doesn't yield and recognise British sovereignity over the Iberian peninsula, it is clearly time for Britain to be great again, and using Gibraltar as a base of operations much like it used Calais six and a half centuries ago.

Spain shall rue the day it denied GREAT Britain its sovereign rights over the South British peninsula and even spoke a foreign, a romance language while residing on British soil.

Rule Britannia.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:41 am

Myfanwyski wrote:
Risottia wrote:Spain isn't trying to take Gibraltar right now.just wait They of course don't want the Brits and Bruxelles rule over one of their land borders without their say being considered crucial.

If they tried to get a secession by unconstitutional means, like the Catalans - you give them nothing other than 'unconstitutional means' to seek independence



False.
1.Spain couldn't take Gibraltar short of a full-blown war with Britain. They just aren't going to do that.
2.There's a constitutional way to become independent from Spain, and it's amending the Spanish Constitution.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:44 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:Here's how to properly do Brexit: pull all diplomats, politicians, etc. out of European bureaucracies, and declare yourself independent on basis of national sovereignty.

None of this treaty nonsense.

Yass. Please do that. I would really welcome English manors priced one euro per dozen.
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Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52295
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:45 am

Kowani wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:

Yup. The borders of Europe have shifted so much over the past 100 years or so that the borders on century-old European maps are nigh on unrecognisable in many places. You'd think that the huge tracts of territory that have been ceded in Europe over the years—huge areas that make Gibraltar look pathetic by comparison—would be the bigger issue; but clearly not...

I guess all of the Mediterranean goes back to Italy, Rome rises again!

Fuck no, we're not getting involved in Judea anymore.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

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