Missionary killed after trying to convert isolated tribe

[Andsed]

To blame the missionary for his own murder is to treat the tribe like savage animals where we do not extend them the moral franchise we extend to otrher human beings. People seem to blame him in the same way they'd blame a man who tried to pet a tiger for being mauled.

So either we treat the tribesmen as normal human moral actors and blame them for murder, or we blame the missionary for his own death and treat them as wild beasts; like an Alaskan forest full of bears the island is to be avoided and quarantined because of all the savage mankilling creatures about.

The missionary does carry a good portion of the blame though. He was a fucking idiot who despite knowing the tribe was hostile to outsiders and having been chased off by the tribe four or five times before he decided to once again break the law and not only got himself killed but go multiple innocent fishermen in trouble.

[Luminesa]

Nobody has considered vaccinating these people against various diseases then? We can’t have guys in hazmat suits carefully go and vaccinate these people against diseases? I mean just letting them sit there, and gambling with the possibility that someone could come to their home and could accidentally kill them with the flu, doesn’t seem responsible. We have the technology to do it, this isn’t 1492.

[Infected Mushroom]

At this rate, I’m going to be advocating that they be forcefully integrated into India and those responsible for the murder arrested and put on trial...

They would die. Their immune systems wouldn't handle even the common cold. And I doubt they understand murder as a concept. Ignorance of the law usually isn't an excuse, but in this case it is, since it is impossible for these people to learn the law because of their way of life.

Getting really tired of posters defending what’s essentially a bunch of savages murdering a preacher with arrows (and going in very strange circles to make it “self defense”)... the amount of mental gymnastics and victim blaming here is truly truly outrageous...

The guy had arrows fired at him on a previous visit for fuck's sake, hardly mental gymnastics. He knew fine well what he was doing. If someone gets killed by doing something incredibly stupid and therefore a victim of their own stupidity, then the victim blaming is entirely justified.

Then that just shows that they (the tribe) understood there was humanity in the preacher. Which makes them a bunch of racist murderers.

No civilized society would execute someone for trespass of land on sight (even if warned before). No, this was a hate crime. He looked different and died for it.

I don’t like the preacher either, but I think he’s unveiled a greater evil here. Such a xenophobic, murderous society honestly doesn’t deserve protection from a democratic state.

I can only imagine what kind of oppression the people living inside endure.

[Ifreann]

The peaceful interactions they've had with strangers.

If anything, that only goes to prove my point. What I ascribed to them was likely wrong. Why didn’t they kill T. Pandit on his friendly visits in ‘self-defense’ like they did with others?

¯\(°_o)/¯

---

To blame the missionary for his own murder is to treat the tribe like savage animals where we do not extend them the moral franchise we extend to otrher human beings. People seem to blame him in the same way they'd blame a man who tried to pet a tiger for being mauled.

So either we treat the tribesmen as normal human moral actors and blame them for murder, or we blame the missionary for his own death and treat them as wild beasts; like an Alaskan forest full of bears the island is to be avoided and quarantined because of all the savage mankilling creatures about.

Given the impenetrable language barrier, the Sentinelese made it as clear as possible that they did not want Chau on their island. Yet he returned, and returned, and returned. Exactly what were they supposed to do? Tolerate him forever? Magically learn English from nowhere? Build a big beautiful wall and make India pay for it?

[Andsed]

Nobody has considered vaccinating these people against various diseases then? We can’t have guys in hazmat suits carefully go and vaccinate these people against diseases? I mean just letting them sit there, and gambling with the possibility that someone could come to their home and could accidentally kill them with the flu, doesn’t seem responsible. We have the technology to do it, this isn’t 1492.

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

[Infected Mushroom]

Nobody has considered vaccinating these people against various diseases then? We can’t have guys in hazmat suits carefully go and vaccinate these people against diseases? I mean just letting them sit there, and gambling with the possibility that someone could come to their home and could accidentally kill them with the flu, doesn’t seem responsible. We have the technology to do it, this isn’t 1492.

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

You can capture all of them, vaccinate them when they are unconscious, and then put them into Training camps to learn the skills to be re integrated into modern society... it may take several generations of reprogramming and of course it’s important that they be treated humanely and with luxuries...

This would be a joint US India operations with personnel from top special forces

[Andsed]

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

You can capture all of them, vaccinate them when they are unconscious, and then put them into Training camps to learn the skills to be re integrated into modern society... it may take several generations of reprogramming and of course it’s important that they be treated humanely and with luxuries...

...ARE YOU SERIOUS! First off we have no idea how they would react to sleeping gas since there immune systems are much different then ares. And second you want us to put them into concentration camps oh sorry "training camps" to reprogram them. That is one of the most oppressive idea's I have ever heard.

[Ifreann]

Nobody has considered vaccinating these people against various diseases then? We can’t have guys in hazmat suits carefully go and vaccinate these people against diseases? I mean just letting them sit there, and gambling with the possibility that someone could come to their home and could accidentally kill them with the flu, doesn’t seem responsible. We have the technology to do it, this isn’t 1492.

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

Also, we don't have vaccines for all diseases. There's no cold vaccine. There's probably vast numbers of species of bacteria that our immune systems suppress handily that could kill the Sentinelese. And the only way for the Sentinelese to gain those immunities would be to interbreed with outsiders for a few generations.

We certainly do have the technology to keep a few hundred people in isolation and rape their women until there's a generation that's acquired our genetic immunities. Personally I think that would be an utterly abominable thing to do, but we could do it.

[The New California Republic]

They would die. Their immune systems wouldn't handle even the common cold. And I doubt they understand murder as a concept. Ignorance of the law usually isn't an excuse, but in this case it is, since it is impossible for these people to learn the law because of their way of life.


The guy had arrows fired at him on a previous visit for fuck's sake, hardly mental gymnastics. He knew fine well what he was doing. If someone gets killed by doing something incredibly stupid and therefore a victim of their own stupidity, then the victim blaming is entirely justified.

Then that just shows that they (the tribe) understood there was humanity in the preacher. Which makes them a bunch of racist murderers.

No civilized society would execute someone for trespass of land on sight (even if warned before). No, this was a hate crime. He looked different and died for it.

I don’t like the preacher either, but I think he’s unveiled a greater evil here. Such a xenophobic, murderous society honestly doesn’t deserve protection from a democratic state.

I can only imagine what kind of oppression the people living inside endure.

None of what I said says any of that, way to strawman the fuck out of me and totally ignore what I said.

[Infected Mushroom]

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

You can capture all of them, vaccinate them when they are unconscious, and then put them into Training camps to learn the skills to be re integrated into modern society... it may take several generations of reprogramming and of course it’s important that they be treated humanely and with luxuries...

...ARE YOU SERIOUS! First off we have no idea how they would react to sleeping gas since there immune systems are much different then ares. And second you want us to put them into concentration camps oh sorry "training camps" to reprogram them. That is one of the most oppressive idea's I have ever heard.

No these would be re education camps filled with luxuries and very humanitarian conditions; we need to be prepared to accommodate them for several generations until they can safely rejoin modern society

There would be transparency and NGOs involved, supervision etc

We would need to test the agents first to make sure we don’t kill

The goal is humanitarian

[The New California Republic]

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

You can capture all of them, vaccinate them when they are unconscious, and then put them into Training camps to learn the skills to be re integrated into modern society... it may take several generations of reprogramming and of course it’s important that they be treated humanely and with luxuries...

This would be a joint US India operations with personnel from top special forces

Whenever you mention things like reprogramming and training camps I just tune out I'm afraid.

[Andsed]

...ARE YOU SERIOUS! First off we have no idea how they would react to sleeping gas since there immune systems are much different then ares. And second you want us to put them into concentration camps oh sorry "training camps" to reprogram them. That is one of the most oppressive idea's I have ever heard.

No these would be re education camps filled with luxuries and very humanitarian conditions; we need to be prepared to accommodate them for several generations until they can safely rejoin modern society

There would be transparency and NGOs involved, supervision etc

We would need to test the agents first to make sure we don’t kill

The goal is humanitarian

Again re education camps are nothing more than glorified concentration camp I mean seriously you even said they would be used for reprogramming which well anyone with common sense know's what reprogramming people really means. None of this is humanitarian as it is us simply saying fuck you your going to be a part of our world and like it.

The humanitarian thing to do is wait until we have been able to translate their language then make contact and explain our technology and world and let them decide if they want to embrace. And in the mean times we have a couple of patrol boats patrol the waters around the island to make sure no one gets in or drifts to close.

[Ifreann]

Okay I have explained this multiple times but I guess I have to do so again. Simply going in and vaccinating them is not going to end well. We can't communicate with them and how exactly would you react if a bunch of stranger creatures came in and started injecting you with stuff. Do you see the obvious problem with simply going in and trying to vaccinate them?

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

Tranquillisers and sleeping gas don't work like they do in video games and movies. You can't just shoot someone with a tranquilliser dart or drop gas nearby and they fall over safely unconscious.

[Infected Mushroom]

No these would be re education camps filled with luxuries and very humanitarian conditions; we need to be prepared to accommodate them for several generations until they can safely rejoin modern society

There would be transparency and NGOs involved, supervision etc

We would need to test the agents first to make sure we don’t kill

The goal is humanitarian

Again re education camps are nothing more than glorified concentration camp I mean seriously you even said they would be used for reprogramming which well anyone with common sense know's what reprogramming people really means. None of this is humanitarian as it is us simply saying fuck you your going to be a part of our world and like it.

The humanitarian thing to do is wait until we have been able to translate their language then make contact and explain our technology and world and let them decide if they want to embrace. And in the mean times we have a couple of patrol boats patrol the waters around the island to make sure no one gets in or drifts to close.

You mean fly/sneak in nano recording/camera bots over several months...

And see if experts can crack the language over the years?

[Ifreann]

Again re education camps are nothing more than glorified concentration camp I mean seriously you even said they would be used for reprogramming which well anyone with common sense know's what reprogramming people really means. None of this is humanitarian as it is us simply saying fuck you your going to be a part of our world and like it.

The humanitarian thing to do is wait until we have been able to translate their language then make contact and explain our technology and world and let them decide if they want to embrace. And in the mean times we have a couple of patrol boats patrol the waters around the island to make sure no one gets in or drifts to close.

You mean fly/sneak in nano recording/camera bots over several months...

And see if experts can crack the language over the years?

Nano camera bots?

There is no such thing.

[Andsed]

Again re education camps are nothing more than glorified concentration camp I mean seriously you even said they would be used for reprogramming which well anyone with common sense know's what reprogramming people really means. None of this is humanitarian as it is us simply saying fuck you your going to be a part of our world and like it.

The humanitarian thing to do is wait until we have been able to translate their language then make contact and explain our technology and world and let them decide if they want to embrace. And in the mean times we have a couple of patrol boats patrol the waters around the island to make sure no one gets in or drifts to close.

You mean fly/sneak in nano recording/camera bots over several months...

And see if experts can crack the language over the years?

You mean drones with camera's on them? I mean sure if we can get some recordings of their language and have a small team try and translate it to whatever language it is most similar to then we may be able to contact them.

[The New California Republic]

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

Tranquillisers and sleeping gas don't work like they do in video games and movies. You can't just shoot someone with a tranquilliser dart or drop gas nearby and they fall over safely unconscious.

As shown by the bungled Russian op to rescue the hostages in the Dubrovka Theatre...

[Old Tyrannia]

You do realize why that is almost impossible at this time. First off investigating this is impossible as the tribe speaks a different language that we are not even close to translating. Second bringing them into society puts them at great risk and will lead to innocents death. And yes this guy carry some of the blame for this. He had gone four or five times before and was chased off he should of known not to go back yet he did and has gotten multiple fishermen in trouble as well.

But the fact remains that he was murdered

If you simply say “well it’s unfortunate and there is a murder involved but I can’t see how it’s in India or the USA’s political and economic self interest to prosecute this properly due to bad PR...”

Then fine. I begrudgingly accept the real politik.

But I just hate it when people go: “he died and he should have died. It’s not murder because (insert some extremely mental gymnastic heavy explanation involving common law) and in the same breath say “well common law doesn’t apply to them.””

It’s annoying and jarring

Murder is a legal term for unlawful killing. The Sentinelese are a de facto sovereign people, and Indian law protects their autonomy; there is no external legal authority exercising effective jurisdiction over the island, so there's no one who can realistically charge them with murder. Effectively, Chau was executed by the island's only legal authority. I'm not going to say the tribespeople's action was morally justified, but it was understandable given that they had no way of knowing this intruder didn't mean them harm, he repeatedly approached them even after it became manifestly clear he wasn't wanted, and they may well have cultural memories of members of their group being abducted in the past. I'm not sure how else you expect them to deal with the situation- I doubt a Stone Age culture has detention centres for illegal immigrants.

On the other hand, Chau willfully placed both himself and the people he was supposedly ministering to in danger by his actions. At best he was criminally negligent in failing to consider the possible consequences of his actions; at worst, he knowingly endangered a whole population of people. I'm not glad he is dead, and I will pray for his soul as well as for his killers, but I find his actions far less understandable than those of the Sentinelese and I think responsibility for his death must ultimately fall on his own head. In this scenario he willingly put himself beyond the protection of either the Indian government or his own, so there's no obligation on anyone's part to punish the tribespeople.

[Caracasus]

You put a team of special forces operators (several hundred men), arm them with specialized tranq rifles... and move in.

Or even better, deploy sleeping gas over the peremeter with aircraft and non lethal artillery

Tranquillisers and sleeping gas don't work like they do in video games and movies. You can't just shoot someone with a tranquilliser dart or drop gas nearby and they fall over safely unconscious.

Yeah. The Moscow theatre hostage crisis really hammered that point home.

[Infected Mushroom]

You mean fly/sneak in nano recording/camera bots over several months...

And see if experts can crack the language over the years?

You mean drones with camera's on them? I mean sure if we can get some recordings of their language and have a small team try and translate it to whatever language it is most similar to then we may be able to contact them.

Yes

but they would have to be arrow proof

[Communist Xomaniax]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

[Ifreann]

You mean drones with camera's on them? I mean sure if we can get some recordings of their language and have a small team try and translate it to whatever language it is most similar to then we may be able to contact them.

Yes

but they would have to be arrow proof

Or we could just leave them alone.

[Andsed]

Yes

but they would have to be arrow proof

Or we could just leave them alone.

Agreed.

[The Grims]

We are talking about the oldest still existing human civilisation. By far. The Chinese, the Hindus, let alone the Christians are all infants to them. Yes, they seem primitive, stale and violent - but they seem to excel at enduring.

Until a missionary brings over a disease that will wipe them out, of course!

Killing those seems to work out fine sofar.

[The Grims]

They would die. Their immune systems wouldn't handle even the common cold. And I doubt they understand murder as a concept. Ignorance of the law usually isn't an excuse, but in this case it is, since it is impossible for these people to learn the law because of their way of life.


The guy had arrows fired at him on a previous visit for fuck's sake, hardly mental gymnastics. He knew fine well what he was doing. If someone gets killed by doing something incredibly stupid and therefore a victim of their own stupidity, then the victim blaming is entirely justified.

Then that just shows that they (the tribe) understood there was humanity in the preacher. Which makes them a bunch of racist murderers.

No civilized society would execute someone for trespass of land on sight (even if warned before). No, this was a hate crime. He looked different and died for it.

I don’t like the preacher either, but I think he’s unveiled a greater evil here. Such a xenophobic, murderous society honestly doesn’t deserve protection from a democratic state.

I can only imagine what kind of oppression the people living inside endure.

What SHOULD they have done then ? They tossed him off the island several times. Detroyed his boat and made him swim. Yet he kept coming back.

Construct a jail ? Can they even do that ?