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What did the Nazis do for us?

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Saiwania wrote:National Socialism gave inspiration and a blueprint for all fascist movements to follow, in terms of the rise to power. Magnificent and almost without flaw, with the best orator and leader at the helm (before he became crazy). There will never quite be another political movement like it ever again, but there is hope for a 4th Reich in the far future. Although probably not in Germany, and the core tenants and platform modified to better suit our contemporary politics and global situation.

Technically the EU is the 4th Reich
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:15 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Saiwania wrote:National Socialism gave inspiration and a blueprint for all fascist movements to follow, in terms of the rise to power. Magnificent and almost without flaw, with the best orator and leader at the helm (before he became crazy). There will never quite be another political movement like it ever again, but there is hope for a 4th Reich in the far future. Although probably not in Germany, and the core tenants and platform modified to better suit our contemporary politics and global situation.

Technically the EU is the 4th Reich

No, its the EUSSR
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Duhon
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:24 pm

Saiwania wrote:National Socialism gave inspiration and a blueprint for all fascist movements to follow, in terms of the rise to power. Magnificent and almost without flaw, with the best orator and leader at the helm (before he became crazy). There will never quite be another political movement like it ever again, but there is hope for a 4th Reich in the far future. Although probably not in Germany, and the core tenants and platform modified to better suit our contemporary politics and global situation.


Stop being a dick.

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:07 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Saiwania wrote:National Socialism gave inspiration and a blueprint for all fascist movements to follow, in terms of the rise to power. Magnificent and almost without flaw, with the best orator and leader at the helm (before he became crazy). There will never quite be another political movement like it ever again, but there is hope for a 4th Reich in the far future. Although probably not in Germany, and the core tenants and platform modified to better suit our contemporary politics and global situation.

Technically the EU is the 4th Reich

The EU isn't Nazi enough for Nazis to accept it as their Fourth Reich.
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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:20 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Dark Socialism wrote:Americans themselves

That implies some of us are mongrels. Who?


I for one am a good ol' American mutt.

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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:21 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Technically the EU is the 4th Reich

The EU isn't Nazi enough for Nazis to accept it as their Fourth Reich.

Yeah, it has lame stuff like free elections and human rights laws... absolutely haram.
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:27 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Dark Socialism wrote:Americans themselves

That implies some of us are mongrels. Who?


The implication that we are Mongrels is true... Guilty as charged...
But that is only a problem if we accept the premise that being a mongrel is a bad thing.

I for one am proud to be a mongrel.
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Saiwania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:59 pm

Liriena wrote:Yeah, it has lame stuff like free elections and human rights laws... absolutely haram.


Don't get me started about the EU, they're a giant part of what is going wrong with Europe. Without the EU, there would be significantly less undesirable immigration from Africa and the Middle East to European countries from my standpoint. The EU is effectively against the interests of all of Europe in pushing their multiculturalism nonsense and other liberal pet projects that add up to cultural Marxism.

The EU is the enemy and worse, are treasonous. If the EU isn't stopped before it is too late, Europe as we know it; will be gone forever. The EU must be disbanded somehow, someway in due time.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:28 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The EU isn't Nazi enough for Nazis to accept it as their Fourth Reich.

Yeah, it has lame stuff like free elections and human rights laws... absolutely haram.

Is it even a Reich if you let people be Jewish?


Saiwania wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yeah, it has lame stuff like free elections and human rights laws... absolutely haram.


Don't get me started about the EU, they're a giant part of what is going wrong with Europe. Without the EU, there would be significantly less undesirable immigration from Africa and the Middle East to European countries from my standpoint. The EU is effectively against the interests of all of Europe in pushing their multiculturalism nonsense and other liberal pet projects that add up to cultural Marxism.

The EU is the enemy and worse, are treasonous. If the EU isn't stopped before it is too late, Europe as we know it; will be gone forever. The EU must be disbanded somehow, someway in due time.

If anything the EU needs to be more Marxist.
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Duvniask
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:28 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yeah, it has lame stuff like free elections and human rights laws... absolutely haram.


Don't get me started about the EU, they're a giant part of what is going wrong with Europe. Without the EU, there would be significantly less undesirable immigration from Africa and the Middle East to European countries from my standpoint. The EU is effectively against the interests of all of Europe in pushing their multiculturalism nonsense and other liberal pet projects that add up to cultural Marxism.

The EU is the enemy and worse, are treasonous. If the EU isn't stopped before it is too late, Europe as we know it; will be gone forever. The EU must be disbanded somehow, someway in due time.

Ah, "cultural Marxism", one of the right-wing's favorite boogeymen, which has its origins in the Nazi idea of "cultural Bolshevism"; one of the other things the Nazis have given the world - a stupid conspiracy theory.

I wish Marxists were as common as some right-wingers like to imagine. One can dream.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:29 pm

Ah yes Liberalism, my favourite brand of Marxism
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Baltenstein
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Baltenstein » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:42 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Technically the EU is the 4th Reich

No, its the EUSSR


It is actually Eurabia
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Nakena
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:36 pm

Create a neverending shitshow invoking Godwins Laws and 4channers who think national socialism was the best thing ever.
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Katganistan
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:48 pm

They also gassed and shoved people in ovens, put people in death camps, and did horrific experiments on twins, on the mentally challenged, on dissidents and oh yes, you might not have heard this, Jews and Romani.

So please, tell us what they've done for us that we already weren't working on, and how we should be grateful to a bunch of racist, homicidal, amoral assholes who should have been eradicated like the cockroaches they were rather than held up as some kind of paragon of virtue.

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Duhon
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:56 pm

Katganistan wrote:They also gassed and shoved people in ovens, put people in death camps, and did horrific experiments on twins, on the mentally challenged, on dissidents and oh yes, you might not have heard this, Jews and Romani.

So please, tell us what they've done for us that we already weren't working on, and how we should be grateful to a bunch of racist, homicidal, amoral assholes who should have been eradicated like the cockroaches they were rather than held up as some kind of paragon of virtue.


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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:59 pm

I guess they gave us Axis and Allies. Now there’s a Zombie version coming out.

I always play Great Britain in that game...
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:28 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Ah yes Liberalism, my favourite brand of Marxism

Post-Modern Neo-Marxism.
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Autarkheia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Autarkheia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:25 am

This thread has gone off the rails by attracting edgelords who are defending the Nazis and should be closed. I might roleplay as a fascist government out of historical interest, but I won't defend anything about it. That's disgusting.

I can't think of anything good the Nazis did that couldn't have also been done by a democratic government without killing anyone. Besides, they destroyed their country in the process so it doesn't matter.
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Nazis in Space
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nazis in Space » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:32 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Ah yes Liberalism, my favourite brand of Marxism

Post-Modern Neo-Marxism.

Anarcho-Marxism.

You know.

The kind the Marx Brothers propagated in their films.

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Mystic Warriors
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Ex-Nation

Postby Mystic Warriors » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Ah yes Liberalism, my favourite brand of Marxism



Liberalism and Marxism are not the same thing.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:07 am

Mystic Warriors wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Ah yes Liberalism, my favourite brand of Marxism



Liberalism and Marxism are not the same thing.

No? Really?
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Oil exporting People
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Ex-Nation

Postby Oil exporting People » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:03 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:Beat the utter living hell out of the Soviets, probably saving Europe from an even more destructive conflict that would've occurred and directly engendered the formalization of the Western Bloc that ultimately killed them off. Even to this day, nothing makes a Communist shit himself more than a picture of a Panzer.

Considering that Panzers are shit tanks I doubt many commies are taking a crap at the sight of one.


Not really; the series as a whole was excellent and worked great. The later models certainly had reliability issues, but even into 1944 (Statistics don't exist for 1945 that I've seen) the Germans maintained a 3:1 loss ratio in their favor versus the Soviets. This was despite the Soviets introducing the T-34/85 for example.
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Sefy the Great
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sefy the Great » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:19 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:

Liberalism and Marxism are not the same thing.

No? Really?

Who Would've EVER guessed?
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Oil exporting People
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Ex-Nation

Postby Oil exporting People » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:34 am

Duvniask wrote:You have repeatedly been claiming the Soviets got their ass handed to them and that they were "incompetent". I explained to you that things are not so simple, and that you should take into account how casualties are actually registered, because many of the Soviet casualties are not even from combat, hence why it's disingenuous to claim Bagration was a display of Soviet incompetence.


That actually hammers home how incompetent they were in that they failed to achieve sufficient sanitation to prevent such casualties. Outside of few outliers, you generally didn't see other Armies suffer from this to the same degree.

In reality it was a successful operation that destroyed Army Group Center and saw the Soviets liberate all of the Byelorussian SSR.


It was certainly strategically successful. It was also against a force they outnumbered somewhere around 3:1, had been stripped of all but 44 fighters to cover their entire front, had their Panzer divisions sent Westwards and were then denied the ability to do tactical withdraws. Despite this, they still managed to take twice the casualties of the Germans over the course of the operation.

Calling it "excuses" is really perplexing to me as well, because obviously a wounded or sick soldier can live to fight another day whereas a dead or captured soldier cannot. All those losses for the Germans were more impactful, even if we look past the relative difference of size between the two sides. You are also ignoring that if we had to truly get an accurate figure of "total casualties", we would either have to include all German medical casualties (sick/diseased) or subtract the number of sick/diseased Soviet soldiers, because those aren't really combat casualties at all. The fact that the Soviets had fewer permanent losses absolutely challenges your false narrative. Ignoring this to make it seem like the Germans did better than they actually did is the real "excuse" here, buddy.


You start off talking about wounded and then switch to talking about sick because we both know it's bullshit not to call a wounded man a combat casualty and not count him in terms of statistics.

The Jassy–Kishinev Offensive involved more than a million men on the Soviet side, and at least a million Romanians and Germans on the other side.
The Soviets lost 13,197 killed/missing and 53,933 wounded and sick for a total of 67,130. If you include the Romanians on the Soviet side, with 8,586 killed and wounded, this total increases to 75,716. The Germans on the other hand lost 150,000 killed, wounded or captured, while the Romanians on the German side had 8,305 killed, 24,989 wounded and 170,000 captured or missing. This adds up to a total 353,294.


Wikipedia estimates are on the lower end, with other scholars putting the Soviet losses closer to 80,000 for this specific operation; combat operations on the whole within Romania amounted to 220,000 from April to October when the last German units were expelled. I'm also confused at your 180 on the matter of wounded. With regards specifically to the Romanians:

For Romania, the change of front brought neither the end of the war, much less the liberation, but rather it was handed over to the Soviets. These did not rush to sign the ceasefire agreement after August 23. They did not treat the Rumanian military as allies in the first few days after the coup d'état, and by 31 August had made more than 120,000 prisoners of war after they had laid down their arms without resistance. These Romanian soldiers, imprisoned immediately after the so-called "liberation from the Hitlerite and Fascist yoke," were released from Soviet captivity only four to five years later.


In other words the total casualty ratio is 4.66 in favor of the Soviets. Not only that, but Romania and Bulgaria switched sides against Germany in the war's final months.


Which further underlines how incompetent the Soviets were, in that it took the defection of Romania and Bulgaria to open the Balkans up to them.

Not a major operation, my ass.


In the historiography of the Eastern Front as a whole, it's not.

They managed to penetrate multiple lines of defense at certain points, yes, but they did not achieve their objective, which was for the forces of Army Group Center and Army Group South to take Kursk in a pincer movement. I'm not sure what "area" or "reinforcements" you are talking about that were "destroyed", since Ivan Konev's Steppe Front, which provided reinforcements to the Kursk salient was still up and running and took part in Operation Polkovodets Rumyantsev regardless, along with the Voronezh Front itself, while in the North the Central Front undertook Operation Kutuzov. I might add the Germans, due to their poor intelligence gathering, had no knowledge of these counter-offensives, and again, they had vastly underestimated the size of the Soviet forces they were facing.


5th Guards Tank Army was effectively destroyed and Army Group South had eliminated Soviet reserves available in the bulge when Hitler ended the operation on July 16th. Manstein was still in a position to keep up the attack and was actually, given the destruction of Soviet armor, in a position to really continue putting the hurt on the Soviets:

The fighting, characterized by massive losses of Soviet armor, continued throughout July 12 without a decisive success by either side–contrary to the accounts given in many well-known studies of the Eastern Front, which state that the fighting ended on July 12 with a decisive German defeat. These authors describe the battlefield as littered with hundreds of destroyed German tanks and report that the Soviets overran the SS tank repair units. In fact, the fighting continued around Prochorovka for several more days. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward in the area south of the town until July 16. That advance enabled the III Panzer Corps to link up with the SS division on July 14 and encircle several Soviet rifle divisions south of Prochorovka. Totenkopf eventually reached the Kartaschevka­Prochorovka road, and the division took several tactically important hills on the north edge of its perimeter as well. Those successes were not exploited, however, due to decisions made by Adolf Hitler.

After receiving the news of the Allied invasion of Sicily, as well as reports of impending Soviet attacks on the Mius River and at Izyum, Hitler decided to cancel Operation Citadel. Manstein argued that he should be allowed to finish off the two Soviet tank armies. He had unused reserves, consisting of three experienced panzer divisions of XXIV Panzer Corps, in position for quick commitment. That corps could have been used to attack the Fifth Guards Tank Army in its flank, to break out from the Psel bridgehead or to cross the Psel east of Prochorovka. All of the available Soviet armor in the south was committed and could not be withdrawn without causing a collapse of the Soviet defenses. Manstein correctly realized that he had the opportunity to destroy the Soviet operational and strategic armor in the Prochorovka area.

Hitler could not be persuaded to continue the attack, however. Instead, he dispersed the divisions of the II SS Panzer Corps to deal with the anticipated Soviet diversionary attacks south of the Belgorod­Kharkov sector. On the night of July 17-18, the corps withdrew from its positions around Prochorovka. Thus, the battle for Prochorovka ended, not because of German tank losses (Hausser had over 200 operational tanks on July 17) but because Hitler lacked the will to continue the offensive. The SS panzer divisions were still full of fight; in fact, two of them continued to fight effectively in southern Russia for the rest of the summer.


As for Hitler, he famously said the thought of Zitadelle made "[his] stomach churn", so he was not enthusiastic about Kursk front the start.


And?

He also allowed Army Group South to continue its attack until 17th August, which didn't reach Kursk or get through all the defensive lines anyway


Which is false.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:17 am

Ifreann wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Technically the EU is the 4th Reich

The EU isn't Nazi enough for Nazis to accept it as their Fourth Reich.

Ya but the idea of the Reich doesn’t originally have nazi connotations. The HRE was the first Reich, and the German Empire was the second Reich. Therefore the EU is the fourth Reich.
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