In Remembrance & Discussion - November 11, 1918

[The Archregimancy]

Also, Austria-Hungary barely contributed to the Western Front compared to Germany, which is where the focus of the war was at

Austria-Hungary did, however, contribute significantly to the Eastern Front, which far was both longer in geographical extent, and saw casualties far in excess of the Western Front in a shorter period. While casualty figures on the Eastern Front can be tricky to calculate, the Brusilov Offensive of 1916 was probably the deadliest single action of the War, with the Russian casualties alone likely in excess of total casualties for both sides at the Somme.

Up until the two Russian Revolutions of 1917, the Eastern Front was easily equal in 'focus' to the Western Front - something explicitly acknowledged by all belligerents at the time.

[Page]

For those of you who don't know it, a powerful work of poetry from the perspective of a soldier:

https://reasonandmeaning.com/2015/10/28 ... about-war/

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

The Entente had no right to have this treaty punish Germany, as the nation did not start the war.

But they supported Austria's bellicose policies towards Serbia.

But look, World War I was a useless war started for what amounted to fairly petty reasons. Sure, Franz Ferdinand was killed, but the way the Austrians handled the aftermath of that was nothing short of idiotic, and out of the 40 million who became casualties of war, I'd reckon most did not die for some sense of patriotism or gallantry, but just to save themselves and their friends. It's sad, but as a species, we must learn from it - mourn the dead and vow never to let this happen again, for the sake of those living.

It wasn't idiotic, it was intentional. They wanted a war. The half-assed excuse at diplomacy was to save face and give them justification for an invasion when it inevitably failed.

[Tasuirin]

But they supported Austria's bellicose policies towards Serbia.

But look, World War I was a useless war started for what amounted to fairly petty reasons. Sure, Franz Ferdinand was killed, but the way the Austrians handled the aftermath of that was nothing short of idiotic, and out of the 40 million who became casualties of war, I'd reckon most did not die for some sense of patriotism or gallantry, but just to save themselves and their friends. It's sad, but as a species, we must learn from it - mourn the dead and vow never to let this happen again, for the sake of those living.

The problem is in the fact that humans are just fucking assholes. We're an extremely violent species.

While I would love to disagree with you, your point is iron-clad. Yes, we are fucking assholes.

[Teachian]

Remember all the veterans of this war, and all other wars, and all the shit they have to go through, often for reasons few people end up proud of.

There was a documentary/tv show called Apocalypse World War 1 I watched a couple years back, and the one thing I remember was the narrator. He had just a depressing voice that almost embodied the sense of pessimism, tragedy and disaster the conflict brought upon the world. How quickly it went from everyone cheering on the conflict as a short war of glory to vanquish their rivals to a sense of unending suffering that shook the foundation of society.

WW1 and the literature that followed really catches the sense of disaster for soldiers and citizens alike when societies take peace and prosperity for granted.

[Dark Socialism]

Long live the Arditi!

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

But they supported Austria's bellicose policies towards Serbia.

But look, World War I was a useless war started for what amounted to fairly petty reasons. Sure, Franz Ferdinand was killed, but the way the Austrians handled the aftermath of that was nothing short of idiotic, and out of the 40 million who became casualties of war, I'd reckon most did not die for some sense of patriotism or gallantry, but just to save themselves and their friends. It's sad, but as a species, we must learn from it - mourn the dead and vow never to let this happen again, for the sake of those living.

The problem is in the fact that humans are just fucking assholes. We're an extremely violent species.

Of course we are. We're animals, it's in our nature. It's not gonna go away just because we want it to, unfortunately.

[Tasuirin]

But they supported Austria's bellicose policies towards Serbia.

But look, World War I was a useless war started for what amounted to fairly petty reasons. Sure, Franz Ferdinand was killed, but the way the Austrians handled the aftermath of that was nothing short of idiotic, and out of the 40 million who became casualties of war, I'd reckon most did not die for some sense of patriotism or gallantry, but just to save themselves and their friends. It's sad, but as a species, we must learn from it - mourn the dead and vow never to let this happen again, for the sake of those living.

It wasn't idiotic, it was intentional. They wanted a war. The half-assed excuse at diplomacy was to save face and give them justification for an invasion when it inevitably failed.

That's exactly why they were idiotic. Any war with Serbia would almost certainly lead to Russia knocking on their door, and even if Germany supported them, that would be a much harder war to win. Plus the Austrians were politically out-manoeuvred by the Serbian government when they accepted all but one of their terms. Austrian foreign policy was a mess.

[Thermodolia]

Yeah but Austria-Hungary was pretty deserved

I mean they started the war

Their archduke was shot by terrorists from Serbia who were clearly backed by the government. If the Russians had just taken a chill pill thing may have not gone so south.

The Russians came to Serbia’s aid after Serbia was invaded by the Austro-Hungarian’s

[Deltanium]

Prussia wasn't dissolved after WW1, though.

He stated that Germany deserved what it got after WWII, which had Prussia dissolved.

If Germany just had Elsass-Lothringen, Danzig, Posen and Ostpreussen taken away and then divided like the Roosevelt plan said, the German states would be too weak to fight.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

It wasn't idiotic, it was intentional. They wanted a war. The half-assed excuse at diplomacy was to save face and give them justification for an invasion when it inevitably failed.

That's exactly why they were idiotic. Any war with Serbia would almost certainly lead to Russia knocking on their door, and even if Germany supported them, that would be a much harder war to win. Plus the Austrians were politically out-manoeuvred by the Serbian government when they accepted all but one of their terms. Austrian foreign policy was a mess.

Serbia calling their bluff is funny as fuck in hindsight because it makes their entire invasion look like a hissy fit instead of being premeditated.

[NewLakotah]

The political chaos started before Versailles, but it added to it.

IIRC, didn't the political chaos happen because they were planning to surrender? If they hadn't seriously contemplated losing in October 1918, then they could have reasonably carried the war on longer.

Political chaos started well before the armistice. The main reason why things turned out as they did after the war was the insistence that the German Army didn't lose, but the politicians, and of course, the Jews, that caused them to lose the war.


In some ways, its not entirely false, the German army was not dealt a totally fatal blow, but that's mostly because they called for an armistice to prevent such a thing from happening. The Germans were already teetering after the fall of the Ottomans and the Balkans in 1917, were under blockade since 1914. The war for German was over by 1916, in all honesty, when they couldn't break the French at Verdun. The final death blow to German success was at Arras, of course, but the war was already practically over for German when they realized they couldn't count on their allies at all anymore and were already breaking.

---

However, despite the way the discussion was labeled, I think it is a good time to honour all of those who died from the "forgotten fronts": Serbia, Italy, and the smaller colonial wars in Africa and the Middle East. Serbia lost 25% of their entire population during the war, a catastrophic loss that is almost unimaginable to think of. Yet, against all odds, managed to survive and defend against repeated onslaughts from a far more numerous foe for well over a year, and even after their death march, managed to return in some form back to help liberate their homeland with the French, and a few Brits, in 1917.

The Italian Front is one that I've been reading into a lot more recently. Its a truly horrifying front and absolutely a mad slaughter. Not to mention how Italy then got screwed by the British at the treaty of Versailles and their land claims lost, leaving the entire country totally pissed off and broke. The idea of trench warfare in the mountains just creates an unimaginable hell.

However, this is Remembrance Day, so this is supposed to be to honour ALL those who fought and died on all fronts for all sides in the War to End All Wars. And for me personally, one of my relatives who died in Belgium in 1915 apart of the Canadian Army. We Will Remember Them.

[Tasuirin]

He stated that Germany deserved what it got after WWII, which had Prussia dissolved.

If Germany just had Elsass-Lothringen, Danzig, Posen and Ostpreussen taken away and then divided like the Roosevelt plan said, the German states would be too weak to fight.

Don't forget the Saar territory, though I'll be the first to admit that it's easy to forget the Saar territory.

[Thermodolia]

It didn’t do shit. It was a pathetic excuse for a treaty. The Germans should have gotten the treatment they got at the end of WW2 at the end of WW1

Are you seriously implying Germany deserved to be broken up, and Prussia dissolved after WWI?

Yes

[Tasuirin]

That's exactly why they were idiotic. Any war with Serbia would almost certainly lead to Russia knocking on their door, and even if Germany supported them, that would be a much harder war to win. Plus the Austrians were politically out-manoeuvred by the Serbian government when they accepted all but one of their terms. Austrian foreign policy was a mess.

Serbia calling their bluff is funny as fuck in hindsight because it makes their entire invasion look like a hissy fit instead of being premeditated.

It's so true. I almost feel like Serbia should be given a medal for their trollery in the lead-up to WWI.

[Engleberg]

Are you seriously implying Germany deserved to be broken up, and Prussia dissolved after WWI?

Yes

That is despicable.

[Dark Socialism]

Are you seriously implying Germany deserved to be broken up, and Prussia dissolved after WWI?

Yes

America good, Hun bad

[Thermodolia]

He stated that Germany deserved what it got after WWII, which had Prussia dissolved.

If Germany just had Elsass-Lothringen, Danzig, Posen and Ostpreussen taken away and then divided like the Roosevelt plan said, the German states would be too weak to fight.

The French plan was far better. Break Germany into four separate states. Two of which would be under French influence and control. The was to be one independent German Territory and another influenced by Poland

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Tbh WWI could have been avoided if the Byzantine Empire still existed.

RIP

[Engleberg]

If Germany just had Elsass-Lothringen, Danzig, Posen and Ostpreussen taken away and then divided like the Roosevelt plan said, the German states would be too weak to fight.

The French plan was far better. Break Germany into four separate states. Two of which would be under French influence and control. The was to be one independent German Territory and another influenced by Poland

Every word you speak in relation to breaking up Germany gets more and more atrocious for my eyes. How could anyone support this.

[Engleberg]

Tbh WWI could have been avoided if the Byzantine Empire still existed.

RIP

You’re not exactly wrong there.

[NewLakotah]

Yes

That is despicable.

Why? Germany didn't exist before 1871, and probably shouldn't have existed past 1919 in the manner that it did. Would have saved another 70 million lives possibly. Secondly Prussia barely existed after WWI as it is.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

The French plan was far better. Break Germany into four separate states. Two of which would be under French influence and control. The was to be one independent German Territory and another influenced by Poland

Every word you speak in relation to breaking up Germany gets more and more atrocious for my eyes. How could anyone support this.

Because "muh Nationalist Boogieman"

[Nakena]

The French plan was far better. Break Germany into four separate states. Two of which would be under French influence and control. The was to be one independent German Territory and another influenced by Poland

Every word you speak in relation to breaking up Germany gets more and more atrocious for my eyes. How could anyone support this.

What if Austria would have won in 1866?

[Engleberg]

That is despicable.

Why? Germany didn't exist before 1871, and probably shouldn't have existed past 1919 in the manner that it did. Would have saved another 70 million lives possibly. Secondly Prussia barely existed after WWI as it is.

The German Empire has every right to exist as France or Britain.