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Whiteness and Race in America (Read entire post)

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Rojava Free State
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Whiteness and Race in America (Read entire post)

Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:36 pm

Over the centuries, America's racial categories have morphed and changed as new immigrants arrived at the shores of our country from nations far and wide. When America began, the three basic divisions that existed were mostly enslaved black africans, European Americans of mainly Northern European descent (majority British Isles, minorities from Sweden, Netherlands and Germany), and Native peoples just beyond the thirteen colonies. During the 1800s, scientific racism sprouted up, influenced by Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and pushed the belief that different races differed in intelligence and mannerisms through evolution. As a result, the divide between black and white people in America widened, now pushed by a new pseudoscientific white supremacist ideology.

In the 1850s, Irish immigrants arrived on American shores, fleeing a deadly famine in their homeland. The Irish differed from other Americans at the time due to their poor economic status, foreign culture and catholic faith, and partially influenced by British Imperialist prejudice toward the Irish they conquered, those already here alienated the Irish, and relegated them to ethnic ghettoes in New York and Boston. Social Darwinists classified the Irish as "Brown people" (does this sound familiar?) and claimed that they were not the same race as white americans, and were uncivilized and dangerous as a result. Some speculated that the Irish were a missing evolutionary link between Black Africans and White Europeans, or a mixed raced population. The Irish slowly assimilated into American society as future generations gained Middle Class status and political might through their civic participation.


Then in the 1900s, immigrants came to America from Italy, Greece, Poland, Ukraine and Russia. These immigrants were also considered to be a non white ethnicity originally, and faced nativist violence and discrimination on US soil. One of the biggest mass lynchings in US history was the murder of several Italian Americans in New Orleans after a rumor spread that a police officer was killed by Sicilians. These communities were non white in America until World War II, when individuals from them joined the United States war effort against the Axis, while the second generation worked their way into the Middle Class and Italian-America became known for Frank Sinatra.


Meanwhile, in 1944, the Supreme court of the United States ruled that Arab-Americans could not be banned by racial quotas on Asian immigration because Arab-Americans were white, and not regulated by such racist travel bans. Arab-Americans, then mainly Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian Christians, became white americans along with Southern and Eastern Europeans and Jews.


Through the mid 20th century, the white racial category in America expanded to include all Caucasian peoples of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, as well as Hispanic Americans of mainly carribean descent (Puerto Rican and Cuban). Things began changing in the 1980s when the Mariol Boatlift occurred. Thousands of impoverished Cuban refugees arrived in Miami and settled the city, and the municipality continued to become more latino into the present day (Miami is now 71% Hispanic/latino in population). Meanwhile, terrorism increased in the Middle East, mainly from organizations such as the PLO. Thousands of refugees from Lebanon's civil war also arrived on US soil, many more of whom were muslim compared to the mainly Christian immigrants of the earlier 20th century. In the early 1990s, the collapse of communism in Albania and the Yugoslav Civil War drove thousands of Albanians to immigrate to America, setting up communities in New York, Detroit and Los Angeles.

In the 1990s, Al Qaeda became an increasing threat to the US, bombing the World Trade Center in 1991. Al Qaeda rammed a United States battle ship in 1998. Meanwhile, immigration from Latin America increased, and illegal immigration became an increasing social dilemma for America. Things climaxed in 2001, when 9/11 rocked the world. Arab-Americans and people who resembled Middle Easterners came under increasing suspicion and racist attacks following the destruction of the world trade towers, and Middle Eastern people in the US found themselves increasingly alienated from other people, viewed by many as potential terrorists. Latino immigration was at an all time high by this point and latin americans too began to be otherized, largely due to the Mexican Drug War south of the border.

As of the election of Donald Trump in 2016, Hispanic, Arab and Albanian Americans found themselves at risk for increased discrimination and violence from nativists. The Alt Right movement began drawing deeper boundary lines between whites and those they considered non white, and social darwinism experienced a major comeback.

In the increasingly racial atmosphere of the United States, one must ask three major questions. I want your opinions on America's racial divides. I have three questions for you as th audience.

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.



PLEASE NOTE this conversation needs to stay civil. Do not personally attack people if you disagree with their ideas, but debate constructively instead. Also, do not fill the comment section with racial slurs or attacks on people based on their ethnic heritage. All racially charged comments toward others will get deleted.


I am trying to figure out what Americans think about race and how they draw the boundary lines of race. While I believe that race is a social construct based around the clinal variation of human skin tone, and is really meaningless, others may not agree. You may state your opinion as long as you do not personally attack other individuals. Let's have an in depth conversation about this issue guys, because after the Pittsburg shooting and the murder of two African-American customers at a Kroger in Kentucky, we need to have a dialogue about race and prejudice in the United States.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:30 pm

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?

I use the US Census Bureau definition of "Caucasian", which is anyone whose post-Columbian ancestry is of the original peoples of Europe, West Asia, or North Africa. I honestly don't think Israelis, Lebanese, Turks, and Algerians look different enough from their Greek and Spanish neighbors to say they aren't white because they aren't ethnically European.


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?

Yes there is such a thing as a biological race. Human populations form distinct genetic clusters that correlate pretty well with geography and prehistoric human migrations; it's why a DNA testing company like 23andMe can accurately tell if you're x% European, y% Sub-Saharan African, z% East Asian/Native American, etc. Europeans, West Asians, and North Africans form a broad genetic cluster that anthropologists call "Western Eurasian" or "Western Non-African".

However, race as defined in practice is rarely based on these broad human genetic clusters. Often it's based on tangible traits -like skin tone, hair color/texture, and nose shape- or intangible ones- like race or language. That's not to say that there aren't genetic differences between Europeans and, say Jews and Middle Easterners. It's just that these differences aren't on the same scale as those between a Western European and a native Kenyan, or between a Saudi Arab and a full-blooded Maori (both of whom would generally be considered "brown" in much of the Anglosphere). Under the one-drop rule, a person who has 7 Anglo-Caucasian grandparents and 1 African-American grandparent would be considered "black", even though they're genetically much closer to a White Londoner than a Yoruba from Nigeria, and likely have pale skin and straight hair.


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.

Yes. I have been discriminated against in the job market due to my race and ethnicity, although I don't believe that was the main reason I wasn't hired. I've worked as a server in a retirement home, and have experienced occasional hostility from residents due to my race. I am a 2nd-generation American by the way; my parents are naturalized immigrants from a non-Western country.
Last edited by Nouveau Yathrib on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Page » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:53 am

Rojava Free State wrote:1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.


1) I guess what constitutes whiteness is decided by consensus. There are lots of light hair, blue eye people from Latin America, some of them call themselves white and some don't. Same goes for some Arabs. Some of them are perceived as white as some aren't. White supremacists hate Jews but the fact most Jews they've ever seen they just saw as white people, you don't know someone is Jewish unless they tell you. I more so think of whiteness in terms of who is excluded - the people who have no chance of being seen as white. It's a lot easier to start with who is excluded and work from there, but there will always be millions of ambiguous people who one might see as white and another not.

2) Well, it's a "biological reality" that if a very dark skinned mother and a very dark skinned father have a baby, the baby isn't going to be a ginger. It's also a "biological reality" that if all your great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents have brown eyes, you are not going to have blue eyes. The characteristics that are used to determine "race" are passed down genetically. You can generalize that people from one region have thicker hair or darker skin than people from another region. Does that make race itself a biological reality? I don't think so, no. I think that we think of "race" as a collection of individual appearance traits.

3) I am a white male and I have never suffered any discrimination or bigotry for being one, almost 27 years and counting.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:16 am

Not an American but to answer you questions:

1. The concept of the "white man" was created by Nazi Germany to promote their pseudo-scientific theories about superior and inferior races. A lot of people call Americans or Europeans "white people" but that's misleading since no American/European identifies as white first (they identify as French, German, Greek, Jewish, Scottish, American etc. instead). Others add Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and even Afghani people to the white race, but that isn't exactly proper either, since many have brown skin (aka not white). A few others only consider people with white skin AND non-brown eyes to be truly white, which is even more confusing considering the millions of Asians with brown skin and blue eyes in Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey etc.

As such, there isn't an objective definition of "white", other than literally having a white skin. Since people with white skin exist worldwide, there can't be a border-related definition. And no, the US should not try to categorize people into races.


2. There are some biological differences between people of different nations but the concept of people falling into very specific racial categories is a social construct.

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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am

-Ocelot- wrote:Not an American but to answer you questions:

1. The concept of the "white man" was created by Nazi Germany to promote their pseudo-scientific theories about superior and inferior races. A lot of people call Americans or Europeans "white people" but that's misleading since no American/European identifies as white first (they identify as French, German, Greek, Jewish, Scottish, American etc. instead). Others add Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and even Afghani people to the white race, but that isn't exactly proper either, since many have brown skin (aka not white). A few others only consider people with white skin AND non-brown eyes to be truly white, which is even more confusing considering the millions of Asians with brown skin and blue eyes in Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey etc.

As such, there isn't an objective definition of "white", other than literally having a white skin. Since people with white skin exist worldwide, there can't be a border-related definition. And no, the US should not try to categorize people into races.


2. There are some biological differences between people of different nations but the concept of people falling into very specific racial categories is a social construct.


Umm the idea of a white man existed long before Nazi Germany....
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Postby Frievolk » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:21 am

-Ocelot- wrote:Not an American but to answer you questions:

1. The concept of the "white man" was created by Nazi Germany to promote their pseudo-scientific theories about superior and inferior races. A lot of people call Americans or Europeans "white people" but that's misleading since no American/European identifies as white first (they identify as French, German, Greek, Jewish, Scottish, American etc. instead). Others add Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and even Afghani people to the white race, but that isn't exactly proper either, since many have brown skin (aka not white). A few others only consider people with white skin AND non-brown eyes to be truly white, which is even more confusing considering the millions of Asians with brown skin and blue eyes in Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey etc.

As such, there isn't an objective definition of "white", other than literally having a white skin. Since people with white skin exist worldwide, there can't be a border-related definition. And no, the US should not try to categorize people into races.


2. There are some biological differences between people of different nations but the concept of people falling into very specific racial categories is a social construct.

The delusion of the superiority The White Man over others was the cause of a fuckload of events in the 19th century, to say the least, or are we forgetting the American Civil War, the rise of Neo-Imperialism, the Scramble for Africa, and Manifest Destiny? (Apart from the first, all three were at least ideologically driven by "We the White Europeans are superior and should bring civility to other lessers", even if in truth the main reason was muh economy). Nazis weren't original in any of the shit they did. They were just the loudest, and the most fanatical, in some cases.


Anyway, not am American so Idk if I should even make my opinion here, but here goes:
1: I personally view those of Caucasian descent as white. That means most of the people who would be native to Europe, North Africa, and West Asia ignoring the colonialism (pretty much what Nouveau Yathrib said)

2: To a certain degree, it is a scientific and biological reality, but not in the way you think. Various reasons may cause that those of a particular descent be less or more resistant to various natural problems. That much is true, though it has nothing to do with natural superiority and everything to do with the evolutionary process. Doesn't make them any more or less superior, however. That said, I view most of the opinions regarding race and difference in race as petty human tribalism and social constructs built due to it.

3: I wouldn't know. I'm not American, I've never been in America to face discrimination due to it.
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Postby Baltenstein » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:32 am

-Ocelot- wrote:Not an American but to answer you questions:

1. The concept of the "white man" was created by Nazi Germany to promote their pseudo-scientific theories about superior and inferior races.


Actually no, that's a rather inaccurate view. For starters, the idea of categorizing peoples into "superior" and "inferior" groupps based on their place of origin is something that had been around long before National Socialism came into existence.
More importantly however, "Whiteness" and the "White Race" were not terms in which Nazi ideology perceived or described the world. Words like "Weisse Rasse" and "Nicht-weisse Rassen", as terms, were virtually absent in the Nazi movement's ideological positions and official policies. What they did talk about, a lot, was the standing of the "Nordic/Germanic race" and its relationship with other "races" living primarily in Europe - like the Mediterranean peoples, the "Ostvölker" aka Eastern peoples (Poles, Russians, Ukrainians mainly), the Celtic peoples and of course the Jews. Nazi scientific racism was obsessed first and foremost with the alleged "struggle" between the Germanic and the non-Germanic, not the White and the non-white. In this, Nazi ideology was severely Eurocentric. They had racist views about black, brown and East Asian peoples too of course, but overall, they were largely ideologically indifferent about them. Hitler made a big point in "Mein Kampf" that the Germanic peoples should stop bothering with the "South" and focus their attention on "the East" (as in: Eastern Europe) instead, as it was both the biggest threat and the biggest prize in Nazi geopolitical thinking.
The reasons for this of course oviously lie in the societal and political realities of the countries in which Nazism (and similar movements) originated. Black, brown, Asian or other non-white people were simply not something you were likely to come across in your daily life or even read much in the newspapers about, being largely contained to folktales and maybe the occasional adventure novel - unlike Britain, France or the US, Germany had neither an extensive colonial history nor had it been much involved in the African slave trade.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:54 am

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.

Yes. I have been discriminated against in the job market due to my race and ethnicity, although I don't believe that was the main reason I wasn't hired. I've worked as a server in a retirement home, and have experienced occasional hostility from residents due to my race. I am a 2nd-generation American by the way; my parents are naturalized immigrants from a non-Western country.


This is very interesting. If i may ask, what country is your family from originally?
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Nakena » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:59 am

-Ocelot- wrote:1. The concept of the "white man" was created by Nazi Germany to promote their pseudo-scientific theories about superior and inferior races. A lot of people call Americans or Europeans "white people" but that's misleading since no American/European identifies as white first (they identify as French, German, Greek, Jewish, Scottish, American etc. instead). Others add Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and even Afghani people to the white race, but that isn't exactly proper either, since many have brown skin (aka not white). A few others only consider people with white skin AND non-brown eyes to be truly white, which is even more confusing considering the millions of Asians with brown skin and blue eyes in Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey etc.

As such, there isn't an objective definition of "white", other than literally having a white skin. Since people with white skin exist worldwide, there can't be a border-related definition. And no, the US should not try to categorize people into races.


Thats horribly wrong on so many points, I dont even know where to start. But the concept of white man predates Nazi Germany, and wasnt even invented there. Same goes for the race theories etc. etc....

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Postby Thanatttynia » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:24 am

‘Race’ is a pseudoscientific meme from the Renaissance that is essentially meaningless. It’s still relevant today because of racism and the history (and presence) of racial oppression. If these injustices did not exist, then we would have moved past race as a category of people by now.

It is a socio-cultural term rather than a biological one. There are broad categories of people who share more similar genetics with one another than they do with people in other such broad categories. That is not what race is. Attempts to wed this concept to the idea of race, or provide any similar ‘scientific’ evidence so as to legitimise race, are harmful and ultimately futile. I have to question the motives of anyone trying to do so. Attempts like this were made and popularised to promote such great things as slavery, imperialism and eugenics.

The confusion about how to define whiteness demonstrates this. Because race is a socio-cultural term and category, we cannot - nor should we - expect scientific reasons for who is deemed as belonging to it. There will instead be socio-cultural reasons for that. The most obvious marker of whiteness is probably white skin (though not all people with white skin are white); the next is probably European descent (though not all people of European descent are white); ad infinitum. We are never going to arrive at a suitably scientific understanding of race because it’s not a scientific term.
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Postby US-SSR » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:48 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.


1. No one is white except a few albinos. We are all varying shades of pink. "Nonwhite," therefore, as well as being objectively incorrect, is a racist term in and of itself, implying the lack of some quality called "whiteness" that is assumed wihout evidence to be superior. "People of color" is the currently acceptible term.

2. "Race" is a social construct. There are no significant genetic differences between humans that can be traced to their "race."

3. No, because Caucasian. Caucasians in the US do not face discrimination based on race or ethnicity, though many white supremacists claim they do.
Last edited by US-SSR on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:50 am

I'd reckon you as white if you have light skin and can be expected to reliably have light skinned babies with someone at least as light as you are(so people who just bleach their skin are out), and have european as opposed to oriental/negroid features. I'd reckon mixed looking groups- Hazaras, Sammi, Ainu- as being of the race who's culture they most share(as more than likely they've experienced substantial mixing with such races). I'd call castizos and some mestizos as white, but most mulattos I'd call black.
As far as discrimination goes, I've been made to feel uncomfortable on account of being white a couple of times. It's always interesting to greet the local Mexicans in Spanish and see how shocked they get. I've never been denied a job on account of it or anything like that, but it did impact me negatively in high school admissions.
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Postby US-SSR » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:51 am

[deleting double post]
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It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:02 pm

US-SSR wrote:
US-SSR wrote:No, because Caucasian. Caucasians in the US do not face discrimination based on race or ethnicity, though many white supremacists claim they do.


To be fair, white people are targeted by non white individuals for violence in the United States sometimes. Philidelphia has had a persistent problem with flash mobs of black american youth who assault white pedestrians on the streets late at night for no appearent visible reason, and in my hometown of Detroit, a mob of young black men beat up an old white man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.

If you mean organized discrimination, that is probably rare in a majority white nation like America, although it does happen in some places where white folks are a minority, such as Zimbabwe and South Africa. A minority of any kind is gonna be at the most risk in society.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:16 pm

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?

There is not a hard line on what white is. People with pale skin is the closest definition.


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?

There are genetic haplogroups, but they mix and do not align perfectly with the common definitions of race.
There are hereditary variations in humans that commonly come in groups together, and common definitions of race fit that okay.
But society here in the southern United States considers someone with a slight tan and/or curly hair and a foreign accent to not be white, even if born in continental Europe. Even white people with black hair are often not considered to be as white. Hispanics and Latinos and Greeks and Middle-Eastern people are often not considered to be white. But someone with an extreme tan and sun damage is considered white if they have no foreign accent, even if much darker than one of the earlier mentioned groups.


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question is not only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.

No, the closest repeated thing is some occasional jokes about being an Irish Leprechaun with no soul, so nothing at all really. I am much more offended by people who claim to be of the same religion calling me a hell-bound cultist for minor differences. It is odd how most white evangelicals around here claim to have ancestors solely from the British Isles. Immigrants are commonly not accepted within said groups unless from Britain and married to an American.
Last edited by Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Anti: Unfair wages/capitalism, war, military, violence, hate, ignorance, weapons, racism, imperialism, patriotism, nationalism, fascism, nativism, violent protest, ANTIFA, USA, and sexism
Collectivism score: 100
Authoritarianism score: 50
Internationalism score: 33
Tribalism score: -100
Liberalism score: 83
I apologize for all the hate and violence that has been caused and will be caused by humanity.
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US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2313
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby US-SSR » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:28 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
US-SSR wrote:


To be fair, white people are targeted by non white individuals for violence in the United States sometimes. Philidelphia has had a persistent problem with flash mobs of black american youth who assault white pedestrians on the streets late at night for no appearent visible reason, and in my hometown of Detroit, a mob of young black men beat up an old white man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.

If you mean organized discrimination, that is probably rare in a majority white nation like America, although it does happen in some places where white folks are a minority, such as Zimbabwe and South Africa. A minority of any kind is gonna be at the most risk in society.


Re: racial/ethnic violence, the issue would be different treatment of perpetrators based on their backgrounds. I don't have any statistics specifically related to physical assault at hand but it's an indisputable fact that people of color in the US are arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced disproportionately for the same offenses committed by Caucasians. I have little doubt your "mob of young black men" would come off worse in US courts than a mob of young white men who beat up an old black man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.

I repeat: Caucasians in the US do not face discrimination based on race or ethnicity.
Last edited by US-SSR on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

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Diopolis
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Posts: 17734
Founded: May 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Diopolis » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:31 pm

US-SSR wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
To be fair, white people are targeted by non white individuals for violence in the United States sometimes. Philidelphia has had a persistent problem with flash mobs of black american youth who assault white pedestrians on the streets late at night for no appearent visible reason, and in my hometown of Detroit, a mob of young black men beat up an old white man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.

If you mean organized discrimination, that is probably rare in a majority white nation like America, although it does happen in some places where white folks are a minority, such as Zimbabwe and South Africa. A minority of any kind is gonna be at the most risk in society.


Re: racial/ethnic violence, the issue would be different treatment of perpetrators based on their backgrounds. I don't have any statistics specifically related to physical assault at hand but it's an indisputable fact that people of color in the US are arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced disproportionately for the same offenses committed by Caucasians. I have little doubt your "mob of young black men" would come off worse in US courts than a mob of young white men who beat up an old black man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.

I repeat: Caucasians in the US do not face substantial, organizeddiscrimination based on race or ethnicity.

Fixed that for you.
Texas nationalist, right-wing technocrat, radical social conservative, post-liberal.

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 19428
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:10 pm

US-SSR wrote:Re: racial/ethnic violence, the issue would be different treatment of perpetrators based on their backgrounds. I don't have any statistics specifically related to physical assault at hand but it's an indisputable fact that people of color in the US are arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced disproportionately for the same offenses committed by Caucasians. I have little doubt your "mob of young black men" would come off worse in US courts than a mob of young white men who beat up an old black man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.


The young black men who beat up stephen utash got 6 months in jail. If th situation was reversed, i think the outrage would be far greater. And the refusal to call anti white mob violence in philidelphia a hate crimeis stunning. While minorities due face an unequal justice system, mainly due to having a lower socioeconomic standing than many white people, the media will never refer to black on white violence as a hate crime, at least not most media. Now fox, they'd call a Mexican guy accidentally running a red light the apocalypse. But CNN will never be caught dead admitting that white people can be victims of hate crimes too and often are. Racism is not a one way street and there's no ifs ands or buts for racial violence. If we ignore anti white violence completely, it will eventually be a worse issue than anti black and brown violence in America.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Oturia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 129
Founded: Jan 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Oturia » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:11 pm

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?
White people to me are European, Siberian, west Asian and north African, to be white is just to have low melanin count and appear lighter than a Hispanic person.


2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?
A little bit of both, the different skin color is determined by melanin count in your DNA, but the idea that it makes someone drastically different was made by society.

3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.
I have been called a cracker in a joking manner when my black friend called me "his crakka" (an obvious play on another word) it wasn't really racist imo jus a silly joke, now I have been made fun of for my ethnic backgrounds, I've been called a Nazi for saying I'm proud of my German heritage even though my German immigrant great×3 grandfather died in 1911 before Hitler's regime, I've been called a Pollack or a dumb pole, I've been called a Mic once which was weird. That's about all I can say, I'm still proud of my heritage and even learned german to defy americas de-germanizing of my family.
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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Diarcesia » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:17 pm

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?
- Those that have light skin i.e. having low melanin

2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?
- It is a social construct denoting how 'civilized' someone is, therefore it's more of a culture thing. Proof is the malleability of the historical definition of 'whiteness', where white = rich.

3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.
- *chooses not to answer*

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Trumptonium1
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Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:26 pm

Visually speaking, people with European aesthetic features who are white enough to get sunburn and receive the largest skin colour change with a tan which disappears quickest. Most likely to have abnormal rates of non-black hair/eyes compared to the world at large. I'd include Caucasians and Russian minorities in this group but less inclined to do so with southern Iberians / Italians / Greeks.

Practically speaking, I use 'white' interchangeably with people of European ethnicity but rarely, and mostly only so Americans can understand.

3 I can't speak about America but I have been called a cracker before by some Bangladeshis/Pakistanis at secondary school before in a disparaging manner, but I found it pretty funny and I don't really think there exists a way in which to insult me on the basis of my skin, albeit it's hard to make me feel offended in any case. Of the times I have experienced discriminating opinions it's usually from other white people who are ashamed that they are white, and of the times I suspected discrimination it's in employment whenever someone calls themselves 'EEO'. To this day I don't call myself British in application forms, because that never has any benefit and only potential drawbacks. In any other category I tend to put Prefer not to say. I do it so I don't get denied by some computer which has reached its quota of natives or puts forward minorities as a lottery to the next phase. Self-hatred is very strong here, conscious or not.
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:28 pm

1. What is your defintion of whiteness? What is the geographic border line in your opinion for what counts as white and what counts as non white? How do you define a white person as opposed to a person of color?


Whiteness is nebulous. It both means being light skinned, and also means being an adherent to western christian civilization and the historical narrative of that civilization (which includes post-christian discourse, but excludes Jews.). In this way, a Black man who is a fan of Frederick the Great and so on can seem as "white" as a white progressive who dresses in african clothing. This is a legacy of our civilization, and attempts to decouple the two concepts are ongoing and succeeding incrementally, but aren't quite there yet. This dynamic means that White Skinned Folk claim more of the prestige and credit for the accomplishments of western civilization than other members of it.

Whiteness is a state of mind as much as a skin color. "Oreo" is an acknowledgement of this fact.

Some anti-western folk use this as reason to decry western civilizational discourse as racist and white supremacist and argue it should be done away with rather than made not-racist. (Akin to "Islam is inherently racist in favor of Arabs so let's scrap Islamic civilization.")

2. Do you believe race is a biological reality or a social construct with no real basis, cemented in human tribalist tendencies?


Mostly. There's some biomedical differences and some differences in physical traits, none of which should have baring on a citizens rights, but are important to keep in mind for health policy and so on in order to ensure everyone is fairly served by public health services.


3. Have you ever experienced discrimination in the United States based on your racial or ethnic identity? This question isnt only limited to people of color, since I want those who identify as white persons to also feel free to talk about any violence or discrimination they may have faced from a non white individual too. Anyone who has been a victim of racism is free to tell their story.


Not a US citizen. I have experienced some discrimination on account of my whiteness, but only from other whites, usually of a higher economic class than me. (The classism of the upper classes has morphed into racism in order to keep alive their belief in their superiority to the working classes, but they no longer believe in white racial superiority and so cannot explain the lack of minortiies in their number. They overemphasize progressivism and anti-racism to ignore the impact of classism in order to retain their sense of superiority to white working class people. When only white people are subjected to being blamed for their own poverty, that is racism.)

They lost touch because they are classists who think they have money because they work harder than the whites beneath them, but they couldn't maintain that view alongside the predominant whiteness of the wealthy without believing in biological superiority of whites. The truth is social mobility is mostly a myth and more an exception than a rule.



They blame whites who aren't as successful as them for their own problems, and think the only reason the upper class is mostly the same demographic as them is racism fucking over the minortiies and their ability to be "Upwardly mobile", when in reality its because we were basically a 99.9% white country hundreds of years ago, and broadly the same families wealthy then are wealthy now. Just check the Picketty study on the concentration of wealth across history.

All this progressive shit is just the rich trying to save their own egotistical view of themselves as superior to the working classes, while trying to accommodate that view with the realization of biological equality of races.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2313
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby US-SSR » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:09 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Re: racial/ethnic violence, the issue would be different treatment of perpetrators based on their backgrounds. I don't have any statistics specifically related to physical assault at hand but it's an indisputable fact that people of color in the US are arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced disproportionately for the same offenses committed by Caucasians. I have little doubt your "mob of young black men" would come off worse in US courts than a mob of young white men who beat up an old black man after he accidentally hit a kid with his car.


The young black men who beat up stephen utash got 6 months in jail. If th situation was reversed, i think the outrage would be far greater. And the refusal to call anti white mob violence in philidelphia a hate crimeis stunning. While minorities due face an unequal justice system, mainly due to having a lower socioeconomic standing than many white people, the media will never refer to black on white violence as a hate crime, at least not most media. Now fox, they'd call a Mexican guy accidentally running a red light the apocalypse. But CNN will never be caught dead admitting that white people can be victims of hate crimes too and often are. Racism is not a one way street and there's no ifs ands or buts for racial violence. If we ignore anti white violence completely, it will eventually be a worse issue than anti black and brown violence in America.


You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... /12783233/

At least one of those who pled guilty to assaulting Utash (who was not "elderly," he was 54) got 6 to 10 years. One of those who got six months was a juvenile processed in juvenile court.

I repeat: no Caucasian in the US is a victim of discrimination based on his or her race or ethnicity. False and misleading claims based on internet memes feeding a sense of unfulfilled entitlement are not proof of discrimination.

Oh and Google? It's your friend.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."


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