Antifa Attacks Liberal Over American Flag.

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ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

There is something in that definition implied but not enumerated, because it apparently seemed to obvious to include in the definition: Self-defense doesn't count.

[Harelia]

Nice job trying to cherrypick, but you're not good at it. So you should stop.

You know full well that they are as fascist as a dead crab. They have no power beyond waving their flag and yelling, unlike Antifa who willfully tries to fistfight people...

He says of the rally where a woman was murdered by a fascist, a fascist who was coincidentally photographed alongside another fascist who was later arrested on entirely separate terror charges.

A woman was murdered by a murderer. A murderer who has been charged with murder. Because he murdered.

[Harelia]

ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

There is something in that definition implied but not enumerated, because it apparently seemed to obvious to include in the definition: Self-defense doesn't count.

Self-Defense against what?

Is the government holding guns to Antifa's heads now and trying to rob them? What do they have to defend themselves against?

[West Leas Oros 2]

"Antifa" isn't an organization that can be targeted or blamed. The history of it is long and checkered in Euroland, but short and kind of pathetic here in the states, inciting hate disproportionate to their actual effect. But yeah, these antifa were thugs.

Just like most anarchists, Antifa mostly consists of chapters, local militias and street gangs.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

That doesn't mean assaulting Liberals is a good idea.

If this story is true exactly as it is told, then I condemn that. But I don't know if that's the case, especially since the far-right tries to infiltrate antifacists groups to encourage violence, or just straight up stages something. They have a history of doing that.

They do but that explanation is a little to conspiracy theory for my liking.

The source that the OP used is legit and there seems to be no evidence that this was a false flag attack by the Alt Right.

Unless some evidence turns up to say otherwise, I think it is safe to say that Anfta did indeed attack a Liberal.

If Anfta really wanted to fight fascists attacking a Liberal would be the worst thing for them. It creates distrust and shows that despite leaning to the left Anfta and moderate liberals are not friends.

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If this story is true exactly as it is told, then I condemn that. But I don't know if that's the case, especially since the far-right tries to infiltrate antifacists groups to encourage violence, or just straight up stages something. They have a history of doing that.

Are you suggesting a false flag?

Well now...

Staging propaganda isn't beneath the far-right. It happened at Planned Parenthood, when some trolls posed as human traffickers and asked Planned Parenthood for assistance. The people at Planned Parenthood continued to indulge in conversation with them for the sake of extracting as much information as possible, and when the trolls left, the folks at Planned Parenthood immediately called the police to report what had happened. But that last part wasn't all over Fox News and the right-wing blogosphere.

Could it have been staged? Maybe, I don't know. Or it might be real, and if it's real, that proves nothing more than that two individuals caused harm to someone, and that I do not condone at all.

[Liriena]

Whether it helps their cause or not depends on what you think their cause is. Antifa isn't trying to win elections, so even if the optics of beating fascists up are bad for a wider audience, it doesn't matter much.

I believe we both can agree that the guy there wasn't a fascist by all likehood.

Of course.

If they would focus it on scum like the KKK, I don't think this thread would be even a thing.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh, never underestimate the ability of "enlightened centrists" and "classical liberals" to sympathize with actual white supremacists and fascists.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

There's no fascists in power. Antifa violence is not justified, and it leads to incidents like what my OP explains.

The entire point of antifa is to keep fascists from gaining power. Is this such a difficult concept?

If someone runs at me on the streets with a knife, should I wait to be stabbed before I respond?

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

[Harelia]

Are you suggesting a false flag?

Well now...

Staging propaganda isn't beneath the far-right. It happened at Planned Parenthood, when some trolls posed as human traffickers and asked Planned Parenthood for assistance. The people at Planned Parenthood continued to indulge in conversation with them for the sake of extracting as much information as possible, and when the trolls left, the folks at Planned Parenthood immediately called the police to report what had happened. But that last part wasn't all over Fox News and the right-wing blogosphere.

Could it have been staged? Maybe, I don't know. Or it might be real, and if it's real, that proves nothing more than that two individuals caused harm to someone, and that I do not condone at all.

Staging isn't beneath the left either. But damn those true scotsmen....

[Liriena]

Eh, not gonna lie. It's definitely true that some people on the far left unironically support the idea of "liberals get the bullet too". But I wouldn't worry too much. I wouldn't say it's a very widespread and systemic effort.

The fact that that idea exists at all in the far left still worries me.

It's worth keeping in mind that the perception of liberalism as left-wing is a very American-specific thing, and many on the far left openly resent that, due to them perceiving liberalism as just as much a part of the problem as conservatism. The far left tends to hate people like Chuck Schumer almost as much as it hates people like Ted Cruz.

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The entire point of antifa is to keep fascists from gaining power. Is this such a difficult concept?

If someone runs at me on the streets with a knife, should I wait to be stabbed before I respond?

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

You are arguing that there should be no direct action against fascists so long as fascists aren't in power. But if fascists do take power, then they will be the state and all direct action against them will be condemned as illegal. You may or may not realize but you are essentially admitting you don't think fighting fascists is acceptable under any circumstance.

[Harelia]

The entire point of antifa is to keep fascists from gaining power. Is this such a difficult concept?

If someone runs at me on the streets with a knife, should I wait to be stabbed before I respond?

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

Not to mention the entire point of our government being built in the way it was designed was to PREVENT fascists from attaining power. That's why power within our government is split so heavily. So one person cannot sit at the desk and go 'I think I'll cause this genocide today. And maybe another tomorrow."

[Xanthal]

Excusing reprehensible behavior because it's committed by a person or group that you consider to be aligned with your interests is something organizations across the political spectrum are guilty of: it's human nature to find ways to justify your own tribe's actions while treating other tribes as suspect- that's very basic evolutionary psychology to keep social groups together. It is, however, a tendency I think we're obliged to recognize and fight against in ourselves if we hope to maintain a civil society.

[Uxupox]

just a little bit more antifa and you will get to the level of incels.

[West Leas Oros 2]

The fact that that idea exists at all in the far left still worries me.

It's worth keeping in mind that the perception of liberalism as left-wing is a very American-specific thing, and many on the far left openly resent that, due to them perceiving liberalism as just as much a part of the problem as conservatism. The far left tends to hate people like Chuck Schumer almost as much as it hates people like Ted Cruz.

I absolutely despise liberals, but I still won’t beat them to a pulp.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

Not to mention the entire point of our government being built in the way it was designed was to PREVENT fascists from attaining power. That's why power within our government is split so heavily. So one person cannot sit at the desk and go 'I think I'll cause this genocide today. And maybe another tomorrow."

Agreed. A true fascist would be impeached if he or she tried to do that, and the supreme court would declare the act unconstitutional.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Excusing reprehensible behavior because it's committed by a person or group that you consider to be aligned with your interests is something organizations across the political spectrum are guilty of: it's human nature to find ways to justify your own tribe's actions while treating other tribes as suspect- that's very basic evolutionary psychology to keep social groups together. It is, however, a tendency I think we're obliged to recognize and fight against in ourselves if we hope to maintain a civil society.

Agreed.

[Harelia]

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

You are arguing that there should be no direct action against fascists so long as fascists aren't in power. But if fascists do take power, then they will be the state and all direct action against them will be condemned as illegal. You may or may not realize but you are essentially admitting you don't think fighting fascists is acceptable under any circumstance.

We're not saying fighting fascism is wrong. Why else would be turn Japan into a nuclear crater twice and charge German held beaches in order to kill a vegan with poor painting skills?

But there's no fascism in power anywhere in America, and to call them a threat just because they wave a flag is absolute bullshit. I could say that Planned parenthood's killing of unborn children equates to Hitler's Auschwitz. Does that give me the right to start going in there and beating the shit out of anyone and everyone for the sake of "preventing fascism?"

No. It does not. And if fascism ever does take power, which it won't, we have second amendment rights for a reason. When the government becomes morally corrupt, that is when the people rise up against it to destroy the corruption. One fat kid with a single chromosome to his name waving a swastika around does not constitute raging a war against fascism. If anything we should just do what we did with the KKK. Laugh at them and call them retarded.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

You are arguing that there should be no direct action against fascists so long as fascists aren't in power. But if fascists do take power, then they will be the state and all direct action against them will be condemned as illegal. You may or may not realize but you are essentially admitting you don't think fighting fascists is acceptable under any circumstance.

Protesting them when out of power is acceptable. If they gain power then it's ok to fight them. This is the United States, not Nazi Germany. Also, considering the fact that they now view our flag as fascist indicates that they are fighting for communism, not just against fascism. Commie violence isn't better than fashie violence last time I checked.

[Fahran]

Attacking them based on their political ideology isn’t necessarily bad depending on the ideology.

That's a remarkably illiberal perspective and, while it's not wrong, at least no more wrong than any other perspective vocalized here, it does lead quite easily down a slippery slope logically. My preference is to make political violence more limited and to maintain the state's monopoly on the use of force beyond instances of immediate self-defense. Why? Because I want to preserve strong, legitimate institutions in the belief that those foster a virtuous society and virtuous individuals.

If the ideology necessarily would cause potentially fatal harm to a persons, then again, violence here would fall under the aforementioned banner of self defense.

A white nationalist rally on its own cannot harm an individual physically or psychologically if it is ignored. Fighting the fascists vindicates their ideology. Ignoring them, except to print their faces to social media, makes them an object of ridicule. If on every occasion, we treated street brawlers as the criminals they are, instead of lionizing them and allowing them to feel like Achilles standing over Hector's mangled form, we'd soon find greater peace in our communities.

Using an overly broad but real world example, if we did arrest people for any-semitism, then we at least know that there would 11 less people dead.

We'd also arrest about ten percent of the American population and over ninety percent of the population in other countries.

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That is some fucking bullshit, because a lot of times they are the ones who start the violence in the first place. Any reasonable person would know that that isn't self defense.

Not to mention the entire point of our government being built in the way it was designed was to PREVENT fascists from attaining power. That's why power within our government is split so heavily. So one person cannot sit at the desk and go 'I think I'll cause this genocide today. And maybe another tomorrow."

So you have faith that the government will hold to some center-left or center-right liberal democracy paradigm, and that fascists could never hope to seize power? I don't.

We're not going to see a Mussolini style coup. Fascists are content to spread their influence at first, and to elect people who use dog whistles, people who will not openly support fascism but are sympathetic to fascist ideology, whether consciously or unconsciously. Then, people who are openly fascist will run for office. Steve King is one of them, an out and proud white supremacist, and he's in Congress. Maybe next election cycle, they try to get maybe 5 more open fascists in Congress, and spread their ideology further so that non-fascist conservatives move further right. And then maybe the next election cycle, there are 10 more open fascists, and several more conservatives (and to be fair, liberals too) who are unwittingly helping them in their rise to power by normalizing them.

That's how it goes in America. It isn't a swift coup, nor is it one decisive election, it is the slow process of normalization and turning people who don't even realize they've been turned.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

There is something in that definition implied but not enumerated, because it apparently seemed to obvious to include in the definition: Self-defense doesn't count.

Does harassing non-fascist civilians also count as self-defense if antifa does it?

[Liriena]

It's worth keeping in mind that the perception of liberalism as left-wing is a very American-specific thing, and many on the far left openly resent that, due to them perceiving liberalism as just as much a part of the problem as conservatism. The far left tends to hate people like Chuck Schumer almost as much as it hates people like Ted Cruz.

I absolutely despise liberals, but I still won’t beat them to a pulp.

Yeah, that would seem to be the prevailing opinion.

[Napkiraly]

"Antifa" isn't an organization that can be targeted or blamed. The history of it is long and checkered in Euroland, but short and kind of pathetic here in the states, inciting hate disproportionate to their actual effect. But yeah, these antifa were thugs.

Just like most anarchists, Antifa mostly consists of chapters, local militias and street gangs.

And all need to be crushed ruthlessly.

[Liriena]

Just like most anarchists, Antifa mostly consists of chapters, local militias and street gangs.

And all need to be crushed ruthlessly.

Nah.