Trump threatens to Nullify the 14th Amendment

[Neutraligon]

It would also create massive problems for things like the hospitality industry as well as for farmers.

So what? They've been profiting off of illegally low wages for years.

Because we as a nation rely on at least the farming industry to produce low priced food.
We already of issues with food distribution with the food prices as they are now, with parts of the country not being able to afford food, or being food deserts. We make that worse and the US will start facing serious food shortages.

While I understand these industries seem to think they should be above the law, but that is really wrong.

It isn't an issue of them being above the law, it is about the practical effect of doing what you are suggesting. If we are to do so we need to find some way to alleviate the issues that will show up, like not having enough pickers to pick the food. We have already seen this happen once, where crops ended up rotting in the fields because there where not enough people applying for those jobs...despite this being during the recession.

be above the law, but that is really wrong.

And on the rest of the US since the prices will be passed on to us, and like I said, we already have an issue when it comes to food deserts and people not being able to afford buying food.

The number of visas issued is a separate issue, and that number should vary on a seasonal, as-needed basis. What I'm talking about is closing these morally questionable loopholes.

And creating a real issue when the cost of food increases so much it is outside the reach of large parts of the US populace.

[Jazz Commies and Sexy Astrophysicists]

One thing that I always find funny about these debates is that migrant workers help the U.S. economy and the nation as a whole by allowing food prices to be as cheap as they are. But ethno-nationalism of so many of the citizens in affect hinders the country's ability to exploit these same people (albeit for terrible reasons).

They "help" the us economy by allowing employers to take advantage of a black market. People who employ illegals benefit in the same way slave owners "benefited" from having free labor.

They certainly do, just as in many parts of the south even today take advantage of impoverished blacks. I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out how many Americans who probably couldn't care less about the humanity of these people are cutting off their own noses to spite their face when it comes to the potential economic benefit they offer.

[Vince Vaughn]

They "help" the us economy by allowing employers to take advantage of a black market. People who employ illegals benefit in the same way slave owners "benefited" from having free labor.

They certainly do, just as in many parts of the south even today take advantage of impoverished blacks. I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out how many Americans who probably couldn't care less about the humanity of these people are cutting off their own noses to spite their face when it comes to the potential economic benefit they offer.

Not necessarily. Our produce is artificially cheap, and this creates a whole host of both market problems (guys who play fairly can't compete) and a number of environmental issues. Our argicultural industry should not be as large as it is. It's not sustainable.

[Neutraligon]

Given that the various colonies and then the various states took on the characteristics of the various European countries that colonized them, I would say it is very much true. New York always had a different culture and in the beginning different nationality to say...Florida or Georgia.

Different parts of the U.S. having different ethnic identities doesn't mean that they don't (or didn't, rather) have ethnic identities.

But there was not 1 unified ethnic identity across the US.

[Neutraligon]

They certainly do, just as in many parts of the south even today take advantage of impoverished blacks. I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out how many Americans who probably couldn't care less about the humanity of these people are cutting off their own noses to spite their face when it comes to the potential economic benefit they offer.

Not necessarily. Our produce is artificially cheap, and this creates a whole host of both market problems (guys who play fairly can't compete) and a number of environmental issues. Our argicultural industry should not be as large as it is. It's not sustainable.

And yet we still have people who are unable to afford food. We still have things called food deserts.

[Thermodolia]

Most Western countries do not have jus soli or at the least have it with restrictions.

Here is a map of countries with Jus soli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli# ... _world.svg

The western world includes North America sans Mexico, the majority of Europe, plus Australia, NZ, and Japan. The majority of those nations do not have Jus Soli

[Shrillland]

They certainly do, just as in many parts of the south even today take advantage of impoverished blacks. I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out how many Americans who probably couldn't care less about the humanity of these people are cutting off their own noses to spite their face when it comes to the potential economic benefit they offer.

Not necessarily. Our produce is artificially cheap, and this creates a whole host of both market problems (guys who play fairly can't compete) and a number of environmental issues. Our argicultural industry should not be as large as it is. It's not sustainable.

Not on a national scale, no. On a global scale, however, we have enough to send to nations that cannot grow their own produce for a whole host of reasons.

[Vince Vaughn]

So what? They've been profiting off of illegally low wages for years.

Because we as a nation rely on at least the farming industry to produce low priced food.

The end price of the food is artificially "cheap" however because employers take advantage of a black market and we subsidize the fuck out of them. Given that we have to deal with the social costs of illegal immigration and pay a lot in taxes to subsidize farms, we really aren't getting the food all that cheaply.

We already of issues with food distribution with the food prices as they are now, with parts of the country not being able to afford food, or being food deserts. We make that worse and the US will start facing serious food shortages.

Actually, most people can afford staple foods (corn, potatoes, corn, etc.). But people would probably consume less avocado and strawberries.

We wouldn't face a food shortage, people would just grow less produce and make up the difference by importing food. And I'd argue that in the absence of subsidies and illegal labor, imported food would be just as cheap. We'd be fine.

While I understand these industries seem to think they should be above the law, but that is really wrong.

It isn't an issue of them being above the law

Yes it is. They frequently flout immigration laws in the name of profit. It's not okay.

it is about the practical effect of doing what you are suggesting. If we are to do so we need to find some way to alleviate the issues that will show up, like not having enough pickers to pick the food. We have already seen this happen once, where crops ended up rotting in the fields because there where not enough people applying for those jobs...despite this being during the recession.

If our farmers can't compete in a fair labor market, they shouldn't be in business. If some go under, we make up the difference with imports.

be above the law, but that is really wrong.

And on the rest of the US since the prices will be passed on to us, and like I said, we already have an issue when it comes to food deserts and people not being able to afford buying food.

But we already pay these costs through our taxes when they go to policing illegals and farm subsidies.

The number of visas issued is a separate issue, and that number should vary on a seasonal, as-needed basis. What I'm talking about is closing these morally questionable loopholes.

And creating a real issue when the cost of food increases so much it is outside the reach of large parts of the US populace.

Not true at all.

[Vince Vaughn]

Different parts of the U.S. having different ethnic identities doesn't mean that they don't (or didn't, rather) have ethnic identities.

But there was not 1 unified ethnic identity across the US.

Probably not, but the history of racism in this country implies there was a strong overarching racial identity.

[Vince Vaughn]

Not necessarily. Our produce is artificially cheap, and this creates a whole host of both market problems (guys who play fairly can't compete) and a number of environmental issues. Our argicultural industry should not be as large as it is. It's not sustainable.

Not on a national scale, no. On a global scale, however, we have enough to send to nations that cannot grow their own produce for a whole host of reasons.

We still would even if our agricultural industry didn't have illegal labor and subsidies. We'd just import the foods we can't economically compete with.

[Shrillland]

Not on a national scale, no. On a global scale, however, we have enough to send to nations that cannot grow their own produce for a whole host of reasons.

We still would even if our agricultural industry didn't have illegal labor and subsidies. We'd just import the foods we can't economically compete with.

Remove the subsidies and foods become unaffordable fast. Nobody's going to pay $6 for a half-gallon of milk or $3.50 for a single ear of corn for the sake of competition.

But we are digressing, let us return to the matter at hand.

[Vince Vaughn]

We still would even if our agricultural industry didn't have illegal labor and subsidies. We'd just import the foods we can't economically compete with.

Remove the subsidies and foods become unaffordable fast. Nobody's going to pay $6 for a half-gallon of milk or $3.50 for a single ear of corn for the sake of competition.

But we are digressing, let us return to the matter at hand.

No they wouldn't, because we'd import food from countries that produce it more cheaply, and the net effect on price wouldn't be that much. No one is going to pay that much to an American farmer, sure, but they would pay a cheaper price for a Brazilian or Canadian product.

[Petrasylvania]

As a reminder, cracking down on undocumented migrants ended up fucking over Georgia's agricultural sector.

[Kaggeceria]

As a reminder, cracking down on undocumented migrants ended up fucking over Georgia's agricultural sector.

"Who cares if they get paid Chinese-level wages? I need my lettuce."

Classy.

[Vince Vaughn]

As a reminder, cracking down on undocumented migrants ended up fucking over Georgia's agricultural sector.

Boo hoo, firms couldn't take advantage of a black market anymore and couldn't compete fairly.

[Neutraligon]

Because we as a nation rely on at least the farming industry to produce low priced food.

The end price of the food is artificially "cheap" however because employers take advantage of a black market and we subsidize the fuck out of them. Given that we have to deal with the social costs of illegal immigration and pay a lot in taxes to subsidize farms, we really aren't getting the food all that cheaply.

I believe there was an article about how illegal immigrants actually aid the economy, a lot. Let me go and find it. We subsidize most industries, just look at how much we subsidize the oil industry. Hell, I am pretty sure that there isn't an industry in the US we don't subsidize in some way.

We already of issues with food distribution with the food prices as they are now, with parts of the country not being able to afford food, or being food deserts. We make that worse and the US will start facing serious food shortages.

Actually, most people can afford staple foods (corn, potatoes, corn, etc.). But people would probably consume less avocado and strawberries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/50-mi ... 2018-05-18

We wouldn't face a food shortage, people would just grow less produce and make up the difference by importing food. And I'd argue that in the absence of subsidies and illegal labor, imported food would be just as cheap. We'd be fine.

Source for it being just as cheap.

It isn't an issue of them being above the law, it is about the practical effect of doing what you are suggesting. If we are to do so we need to find some way to alleviate the issues that will show up, like not having enough pickers to pick the food. We have already seen this happen once, where crops ended up rotting in the fields because there where not enough people applying for those jobs...despite this being during the recession.

If our farmers can't compete in a fair labor market, they shouldn't be in business. If some go under, we make up the difference with imports.

Which will badly effect the rest of the US/. As I pointed out before.

And on the rest of the US since the prices will be passed on to us, and like I said, we already have an issue when it comes to food deserts and people not being able to afford buying food.

But we already pay these costs through our taxes when they go to policing illegals and farm subsidies.

The farm subsidies will not go away with a change in illegal immigration since we subsidies practically all industries. As to policing illegals, I fail to see why illegals would need more policing then if there where no illegals. Policing will occur regardless.

And creating a real issue when the cost of food increases so much it is outside the reach of large parts of the US populace.

Not true at all.

[/quote]
Very true.

[Petrasylvania]

As a reminder, cracking down on undocumented migrants ended up fucking over Georgia's agricultural sector.

Boo hoo, firms couldn't take advantage of a black market anymore and couldn't compete fairly.

Willing to pay Whole Foods price for grocery at Kroger?

[Thermodolia]

As a reminder, cracking down on undocumented migrants ended up fucking over Georgia's agricultural sector.

Didn’t know you where Pro-slavery Gauth

[Thermodolia]

Boo hoo, firms couldn't take advantage of a black market anymore and couldn't compete fairly.

Willing to pay Whole Foods price for grocery at Kroger?

If it means the workers are treated fairly yes

[Neutraligon]

Willing to pay Whole Foods price for grocery at Kroger?

If it means the workers are treated fairly yes

SO what will you do with the fact that there are people who cannot afford food right now, let alone when the prices go up? If you want to solve the problem, be sure that the issue you are making is not just as bad if not worse. Or at least try and solve or at least blunt the problems that you are going to make.

[Petrasylvania]

Willing to pay Whole Foods price for grocery at Kroger?

If it means the workers are treated fairly yes

That takes care of you. What about the rest of the country?

[Shrillland]

If it means the workers are treated fairly yes

That takes care of you. What about the rest of the country?

For me, fair treatment of workers isn't the same as expulsion of immigrants, legal or illegal. Fair treatment means that I would gladly pay higher prices, expelling people means I wouldn't. These are separate humanitarian issues.

[Neutraligon]

That takes care of you. What about the rest of the country?

For me, fair treatment of workers isn't the same as expulsion of immigrants, legal or illegal. Fair treatment means that I would gladly pay higher prices, expelling people means I wouldn't. These are separate humanitarian issues.

Like I said, what do you plan to do to blunt the issues created by the increased food prices.

[Shrillland]

For me, fair treatment of workers isn't the same as expulsion of immigrants, legal or illegal. Fair treatment means that I would gladly pay higher prices, expelling people means I wouldn't. These are separate humanitarian issues.

Like I said, what do you plan to do to blunt the issues created by the increased food prices.

Increase wages to reasonable levels for a start, but we won't be able to do that without bringing organised labour back from the grave in a new form, one that knows how to navigate the new technology-based gig economy as well as standard traditional employment.

[Neutraligon]

Like I said, what do you plan to do to blunt the issues created by the increased food prices.

Increase wages to reasonable levels for a start, but we won't be able to do that without bringing organised labour back from the grave in a new form, one that knows how to navigate the new technology-based gig economy as well as standard traditional employment.

So long term goal rather then something to do immediately, and not one that will happen under the current administration.