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Tiressa
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Posts: 15
Founded: Oct 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Tiressa » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:08 pm

Darussalam wrote:As I have said before, I never said that IQ is one hundred percent heritable. Yes, prenatal environment is an important factor. But here's the thing: one, it implies that IQ is constant during adulthood. Per the Wilson's effect, IQ stabilizes during adulthood and shared environment effect becomes less relevant. Imagine if leftists endorse increasing black IQ through specifically-targeted improvement of prenatal environment instead of affirmative action!

The second is that I'm not fully convinced that this is the case in developed countries like the US.

(Image)
(Image)

Poor whites outperform wealthy blacks in SAT, and blacks with well-educated parents perform worse than whites with poorly-educated parents. If prenatal environment plays a role here, then SES would have stronger influence than genes.


And this, kids, is why we learn how and when to use statistics (and how and when not to use them).

These charts do not support your argument in the slightest since there are many factors to higher SAT scores than mere ethnicity or household background. And that's even without tackling the issue of seeing SAT scores as universal indicator of intelligence.

Austrasien wrote:Institutionalized prejudice is a theory which presupposes by necessity that there are no significant heritable differences between groups of people.

Excuse me?

institutionalized prejudice is literally the institutionalization of prejudice. Such prejudice stems from somewhere (whether it is actually real or not is secondary - it has epistemological value as social fact when institutionalized). And history has shown that most often, such prejudice is racial in nature.
Last edited by Tiressa on Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fate Favours the Strong - There are few who can wield magic as masterfully as the Tiressan Sorcerer-Lords. And there are even fewer who can claim to be as diligent, observant, and resilient. Suffering and misery are everywhere and should be embraced, not shunned. Come and writhe in agony, as we all should.

After all, tradition is important. Mens Sana in Corpore Sano.

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Darussalam
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Darussalam » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:09 pm

Liriena wrote:
Darussalam wrote:Imperialism of the competent.

"The competent" determined by someone who sees intelligence as racially determined?

There you go again, insinuating that the prior is racial discrimination instead of intelligence discrimination. If I said "I want to be governed by the wealthy", does this mean I'm a racist considering that high-income groups are disproportionately white and Asian?
Liriena wrote:
Darussalam wrote:You seem to be eager to insinuate that I'm doing all of this because I want to exalt the white race and put it in every advantageous position. In other words, you're implying I believe in this because I'm a white supremacist.

If it walks like a duck who cites the bell curve and Richard Lynn to insist on the biological determinism of assumed racial differences in traits and behaviors...

That reminds me, you haven't elaborated why Lynn is a disreputable hack whose work should be trashed as racist. I have trashed Gould, maybe now it's your turn?

Liriena wrote:But you sure love citing white supremacists and posing the idea that white supremacism might be factually correct, and entertaining the pseudo-scientific brainfarts of people who thought white people were innately more intelligent than black people...

Then why you shilling for white supremacists?

And there it goes with the assumption of racial bias again.
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USS Monitor
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Founded: Jul 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:10 pm

Darussalam wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
If by "socially relevant" you mean not everyone can eat other cultures' cuisine without getting sick, or not everyone can safely visit cities like Cuzco or Lhasa...

Differences in intelligence are not as large as you're trying to present them, and I'm not impressed with that source.

By relevant I obviously mean the well-being and prosperity of countries. If you don't care about that, then it's fine - but I am presenting an alternate narrative to "Africa is poor because it has been ruthlessly squeezed and exploited by white colonials", not to "racial differences aren't something you should take into account when eating falafels".

Differences in intelligence means difference in human capital quality, and an important determinant of national wealth if we're going by mainstream economics.


Never heard of any biological issue that prevents whole populations from eating falafel.

What I said about different cuisines was referring to lactose intolerance and the fact that susceptibility to vitamin deficiencies varies between populations. For example, white people are less vulnerable to vitamin D deficiency because we can synthesize it in sunlight, and pygmies are less susceptible to iodine deficiency. Racial differences actually are relevant when eating some foods.

Africa is poor for a variety of reasons, but conditions there are improving from what it was in the past, and we should probably spend less time fixating on "why Africa is poor" and just let them sort out their issues.
Last edited by USS Monitor on Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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USS Monitor
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:13 pm

Liriena wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Who?

The author of the Google memo. Y'know, the guy who was not a social scientist of any sort, but still thought it was a good idea to pretend to be one and produce a paper of questionable validity about how bad Google's diversity policies were.

He went on to get interviewed by noted "race realist" white supremacist and fantastically bad film critic Stephan Molyneux.


Oh, I did hear about that. Just didn't remember the guy's name.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
19th century steamships may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. In case of accidental ingestion, please seek immediate medical assistance.
༄༅། །འགྲོ་བ་མི་རིགས་ག་ར་དབང་ཆ་འདྲ་མཉམ་འབད་སྒྱེཝ་ལས་ག་ར་གིས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་ལུ་སྤུན་ཆའི་དམ་ཚིག་བསྟན་དགོས།

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New haven america
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:16 pm

Liriena wrote:
New haven america wrote:Why has this thread been allowed to continue on for 4 bloody pages?

Masochism? A vain, stupid glimmer of hope that a racist can be persuaded by FACTS and LOGIC?

Fair enough, carry on imperial citizen.
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Darussalam
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Darussalam » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:18 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Darussalam wrote:By relevant I obviously mean the well-being and prosperity of countries. If you don't care about that, then it's fine - but I am presenting an alternate narrative to "Africa is poor because it has been ruthlessly squeezed and exploited by white colonials", not to "racial differences aren't something you should take into account when eating falafels".

Differences in intelligence means difference in human capital quality, and an important determinant of national wealth if we're going by mainstream economics.


Never heard of any biological issue that prevents whole populations from eating falafel.

What I said about different cuisines was referring to lactose intolerance and the fact that susceptibility to vitamin deficiencies varies between populations. For example, white people are less vulnerable to vitamin D deficiency because we can synthesize it in sunlight, and pygmies are less susceptible to iodine deficiency. Racial differences actually are relevant when eating some foods.

People concede that these differences could occur, but only from neck down below. There's a difference between arguing that group differences could be caused by genetics but actually isn't, and rejecting the possibility that group difference is genetic and lambasting anyone who suggests so as racist. I don't know about you, but Liriena is a prime example of the latter.
USS Monitor wrote:Africa is poor for a variety of reasons, but conditions there are improving from what it was in the past, and we should probably spend less time fixating on "why Africa is poor" and just let them sort out their issues.

If "Westerners are ruining the lives of Africans until today with colonialism" narrative is going to be shoved down regardless, might as well point out that it is factually wrong and offer an alternate explanation.
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Darussalam
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Darussalam » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:19 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Liriena wrote:The author of the Google memo. Y'know, the guy who was not a social scientist of any sort, but still thought it was a good idea to pretend to be one and produce a paper of questionable validity about how bad Google's diversity policies were.

He went on to get interviewed by noted "race realist" white supremacist and fantastically bad film critic Stephan Molyneux.


Oh, I did hear about that. Just didn't remember the guy's name.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the ... 1797564320

You can read the memo and judge for yourself whether it's hateful or not.
The Eternal Phantasmagoria
Nation Maintenance
A Lovecraftian (post?-)cyberpunk Galt's Gulch with Arabian Nights aesthetics, posthumanist cults, and occult artificial intellects.

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Tiressa
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Posts: 15
Founded: Oct 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Tiressa » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:20 pm

Darussalam wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:Africa is poor for a variety of reasons, but conditions there are improving from what it was in the past, and we should probably spend less time fixating on "why Africa is poor" and just let them sort out their issues.

If "Westerners are ruining the lives of Africans until today with colonialism" narrative is going to be shoved down regardless, might as well point out that it is factually wrong and offer an alternate explanation.


Maybe you can enlighten us on how the narrative of the (still ongoing) tragedy of (post-)colonialism in Africa is factually wrong. Plenty of scholars would disagree with that, but I'm happy to hear you out.
Fate Favours the Strong - There are few who can wield magic as masterfully as the Tiressan Sorcerer-Lords. And there are even fewer who can claim to be as diligent, observant, and resilient. Suffering and misery are everywhere and should be embraced, not shunned. Come and writhe in agony, as we all should.

After all, tradition is important. Mens Sana in Corpore Sano.

Founder of The Adhal Sea.

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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:21 pm

Darussalam wrote:
Liriena wrote:"The competent" determined by someone who sees intelligence as racially determined?

There you go again, insinuating that the prior is racial discrimination instead of intelligence discrimination. If I said "I want to be governed by the wealthy", does this mean I'm a racist considering that high-income groups are disproportionately white and Asian?

Yes, it does, when your ideological bias predisposes you to prioritizing a way of observing classifying intelligence in terms of allegedly innate racial differences. There's little to no possibility that you will be an objective observer. Your observation and discrimination in matters of intelligence will inevitably be tainted by your racism. Chances are you will be prone to overestimating or underestimating individuals based on how you classify them racially.

Darussalam wrote:
Liriena wrote:If it walks like a duck who cites the bell curve and Richard Lynn to insist on the biological determinism of assumed racial differences in traits and behaviors...

That reminds me, you haven't elaborated why Lynn is a disreputable hack whose work should be trashed as racist. I have trashed Gould, maybe now it's your turn?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 6.11821659
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6902003616
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1994/1 ... ell-curve/
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/0 ... sources-1/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 155220.htm
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/bl ... ce-realism

Darussalam wrote:
Liriena wrote:But you sure love citing white supremacists and posing the idea that white supremacism might be factually correct, and entertaining the pseudo-scientific brainfarts of people who thought white people were innately more intelligent than black people...

Then why you shilling for white supremacists?

And there it goes with the assumption of racial bias again.

"Assumption of racial bias"? Yeah, not much of an assumption when you are unironically arguing that some "races" are innately more intelligent than others.

Stop insulting your readers' intelligence.
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Liriena
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Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:22 pm

New haven america wrote:
Liriena wrote:Masochism? A vain, stupid glimmer of hope that a racist can be persuaded by FACTS and LOGIC?

Fair enough, carry on imperial citizen.

Imperial citizen? I ain't no damn imperial milkdrinker!

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE KHAJIIT!
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:23 pm

Liriena wrote:
New haven america wrote:Fair enough, carry on imperial citizen.

Imperial citizen? I ain't no damn imperial milkdrinker!

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE KHAJIIT!

Did you dare just admit to being a Khajiit in front of the King of Skyrim?
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:25 pm

New haven america wrote:
Liriena wrote:Imperial citizen? I ain't no damn imperial milkdrinker!

SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE KHAJIIT!

Did you dare just admit to being a Khajiit in front of the King of Skyrim?

I'm high as fuck on skooma and I don't give a shit :3
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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USS Monitor
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Posts: 30747
Founded: Jul 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:28 pm

New haven america wrote:Why has this thread been allowed to continue on for 4 bloody pages?


Because NSG.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
19th century steamships may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. In case of accidental ingestion, please seek immediate medical assistance.
༄༅། །འགྲོ་བ་མི་རིགས་ག་ར་དབང་ཆ་འདྲ་མཉམ་འབད་སྒྱེཝ་ལས་ག་ར་གིས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་ལུ་སྤུན་ཆའི་དམ་ཚིག་བསྟན་དགོས།

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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:29 pm

Liriena wrote:
New haven america wrote:Did you dare just admit to being a Khajiit in front of the King of Skyrim?

I'm high as fuck on skooma and I don't give a shit :3

I see you've also admitted to have Skooma, and unfortunately, I am the High Kind of Skyrim.

Since Skooma is illegal here, I'm sure 50 years hard labor will cure you of your illness.
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The Batorys
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Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 pm

TL;DR:

"Bio-truths" and other cleverly disguised bigotry dressed as science rather than the racism and misogyny that lurks beneath the surface.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
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Tiressa
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Founded: Oct 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Tiressa » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 pm

New haven america wrote:
Liriena wrote:I'm high as fuck on skooma and I don't give a shit :3

I see you've also admitted to have Skooma, and unfortunately, I am the High Kind of Skyrim.

Since Skooma is illegal here, I'm sure 50 years hard labor will cure you of your illness.


Reminds me of this.
Fate Favours the Strong - There are few who can wield magic as masterfully as the Tiressan Sorcerer-Lords. And there are even fewer who can claim to be as diligent, observant, and resilient. Suffering and misery are everywhere and should be embraced, not shunned. Come and writhe in agony, as we all should.

After all, tradition is important. Mens Sana in Corpore Sano.

Founder of The Adhal Sea.

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New haven america
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
New haven america wrote:Why has this thread been allowed to continue on for 4 bloody pages?


Because NSG.

Why NSG? Why...?
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The Batorys
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Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:35 pm

Darussalam wrote:
Traceynia wrote:This would be an excellent time to discuss the supremacy of Nigerian people. They are extremely educated and successful immigrants who regularly outperform other immigrant groups. I am sure the OP will be very interested in this new evidence and adjust his racial hierarchy to put africans at the top.
https://www.ozy.com/fast-forward/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-us-may-surprise-you/86885

I don't believe in racial hierarchy.
USS Monitor wrote:
I am left of center and I do not believe that everyone is born with an equal amount of innate ability. I have never experienced this reaction that you describe from mainstream leftists. Disagreement, yes. Criticism of my beliefs, yes. But using language like "crypto-rightist" or "Intellectual Dark Web"? No. I have only been called alt-right maybe once or twice, and I think that is too rare to be considered a "mainstream" reaction.

James Damore.

James Damore is a shitbag.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
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The Batorys
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Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:38 pm

Vince Vaughn wrote:
Liriena wrote:So refusing to cave into "scientific racism" led to a stateless, classless society with democratic ownership of the means of production?

Man, I wish somebody had told me. Sounds rad.


Communism has routinely produced untold misery and destruction on the people unfortunate enough to live under it.

As has capitalism, and every other system.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:40 pm

The Batorys wrote:
Vince Vaughn wrote:
Communism has routinely produced untold misery and destruction on the people unfortunate enough to live under it.

As has capitalism, and every other system.

But that doesn't fit their narrative though.
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That's all folks~

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The Batorys
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Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:41 pm

Liriena wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Who?

The author of the Google memo. Y'know, the guy who was not a social scientist of any sort, but still thought it was a good idea to pretend to be one and produce a paper of questionable validity about how bad Google's diversity policies were.

He went on to get interviewed by noted "race realist" white supremacist and fantastically bad film critic Stephan Molyneux.

And literally send it to everyone in the company. Including his female coworkers. Don't forget that part.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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USS Monitor
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 30747
Founded: Jul 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:41 pm

Darussalam wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:Africa is poor for a variety of reasons, but conditions there are improving from what it was in the past, and we should probably spend less time fixating on "why Africa is poor" and just let them sort out their issues.

If "Westerners are ruining the lives of Africans until today with colonialism" narrative is going to be shoved down regardless, might as well point out that it is factually wrong and offer an alternate explanation.


It's a historical fact that colonialists did some shitty things in Africa.

It's also a fact that Africa is no longer under colonial rule and they are responsible for what direction they go now that they are allowed to make their own choices.

Neither of these facts can be changed by arguing about genetic differences between populations.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
19th century steamships may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. In case of accidental ingestion, please seek immediate medical assistance.
༄༅། །འགྲོ་བ་མི་རིགས་ག་ར་དབང་ཆ་འདྲ་མཉམ་འབད་སྒྱེཝ་ལས་ག་ར་གིས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་ལུ་སྤུན་ཆའི་དམ་ཚིག་བསྟན་དགོས།

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Tiressa
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Founded: Oct 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Tiressa » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:42 pm

The Batorys wrote:
Vince Vaughn wrote:
Communism has routinely produced untold misery and destruction on the people unfortunate enough to live under it.

As has capitalism, and every other system.


No, silly. The deaths of capitalism are far away, in countries no one cares about! Shush you, don't make this awkward.
Fate Favours the Strong - There are few who can wield magic as masterfully as the Tiressan Sorcerer-Lords. And there are even fewer who can claim to be as diligent, observant, and resilient. Suffering and misery are everywhere and should be embraced, not shunned. Come and writhe in agony, as we all should.

After all, tradition is important. Mens Sana in Corpore Sano.

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The Batorys
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Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:42 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Darussalam wrote:But the present status quo treats differences in results as caused by unseen "power structures" as opposed to variations in preferences and abilities, and thus something to be "fixed" at a great cost.


You're going too far the other way and assuming everything is due to natural ability when that may not be the only factor in play.

I think he's trying to come up with reasons why capitalism doesn't produce such great outcomes for people of color, and rather than conclude that the system itself has some drawbacks, he's going with "oh they must just be dumber."
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
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Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:47 pm

Darussalam wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Oh, I did hear about that. Just didn't remember the guy's name.

https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the ... 1797564320

You can read the memo and judge for yourself whether it's hateful or not.

Any HR department worth its salt would have canned him, as by sending it to literally EVERYONE, he created a hostile work environment for those coworkers who had to deal with him.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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