NATION

PASSWORD

How do we abolish tipping without harming employees?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Tipping $ vote and Post

We support tipping waitresses, waiters, and other service workers.
12
67%
We oppose tipping waitresses, waiters, and other service workers.
5
28%
We support tipping waitresses and waiters, but oppose tipping other service workers.
1
6%
We oppose tipping waitresses and waiters, but support tipping other service workers.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 18

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Minister
 
Posts: 2364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Democratic Socialists

How do we abolish tipping without harming employees?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:47 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k

So apparently tipping used to be considered a bribe for better service than everyone else, and it only became normalized during the prohibition era when businesses resorted to it as a last-ditch means to stay open.

I'm not too surprised. The entire concept of leaving it up to the consumer to determine how much money an employee makes is only going to fleece those who care the most, leaving them with less money than those who care the least. Everyone should be skeptical of a custom that results in that.

Also, if waiters and cooks don't make enough money, isn't that what the minimum wage is for? If it's too low, raise it. If it's inadequately enforced, enforce it. There ought to be a law that any business proven to underpay workers has all its assets seized.

In the meantime, how do we phase out the custom of tipping without harming employees in the process?

EDIT: Poll created by request of NS Miami Shores...

EDIT again: It has been brought to my attention that due to the mutually exclusive nature of some pairs of options, it might be better to list options as combinations of options in the previous version of the poll. To include the issue of taxes on tips would bring it up to 7 options (only the last of the four doesn't break down to 2 further options because of it) so I've decided to omit it for simplicity's sake.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:51 am

We could do it by allowing the workers to run the restaurants, instead of the capitalists. Maybe not the answer you were looking for, but is one possible way of ensuring the workers get the pay they deserve.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13448
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:54 am

Post War America wrote:We could do it by allowing the workers to run the restaurants, instead of the capitalists. Maybe not the answer you were looking for, but is one possible way of ensuring the workers get the pay they deserve.


huh?
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

User avatar
Scottish Socialists
Diplomat
 
Posts: 653
Founded: Dec 27, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Scottish Socialists » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:56 am

Simple.
Pay the workers better.
Then we don’t need tips.
☭ Soviet Republic of Scottish Socialists ☭
“fffffffffuck” - Duckyyy/Albali
Going to Washington on the 26th!
Valentine Z is the epitome of happiness
CHANGE MY MIND


NSG in a nutshell

RANGERS FOREVER!
F**K THE POPE AND THE IRA!

“Did I miss the train or did the train miss me?” - Gary Brannan

Click here for advice.

Pro: Israel, EU, Megali Idea, Independent Kurdistan, Greater Armenia, Independent Scotland, Social Democracy, Rangers F.C
Anti: Palestine, Brexit, Greater Turkey, Total English rule over Britain, Trump, Putin, Communism, Fascism, IRA, Celtic F.C
iSideWith results | Discord Server | 8values Results | 9Axes Results

User avatar
Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:56 am

You do what most other countries do and pay the workers a regular wage.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:57 am

Uxupox wrote:
Post War America wrote:We could do it by allowing the workers to run the restaurants, instead of the capitalists. Maybe not the answer you were looking for, but is one possible way of ensuring the workers get the pay they deserve.


huh?


If the workers work for themselves instead of for a capitalist, they will be able to earn the full value of their labor instead of losing a significant chunk of it to ensure the capitalist scalps profits.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24158
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:58 am

We can’t until restaurants begin to take the step themselves to say,”we do not do tips here, but we will pay you a livable wage”
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13448
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:59 am

Post War America wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
huh?


If the workers work for themselves instead of for a capitalist, they will be able to earn the full value of their labor instead of losing a significant chunk of it to ensure the capitalist scalps profits.


Isn't that just making up your own restaurant and thus become an entrepreneur?
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

User avatar
Scottish Socialists
Diplomat
 
Posts: 653
Founded: Dec 27, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Scottish Socialists » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:59 am

Post War America wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
huh?


If the workers work for themselves instead of for a capitalist, they will be able to earn the full value of their labor instead of losing a significant chunk of it to ensure the capitalist scalps profits.

That’s.... that’s not... eh.
☭ Soviet Republic of Scottish Socialists ☭
“fffffffffuck” - Duckyyy/Albali
Going to Washington on the 26th!
Valentine Z is the epitome of happiness
CHANGE MY MIND


NSG in a nutshell

RANGERS FOREVER!
F**K THE POPE AND THE IRA!

“Did I miss the train or did the train miss me?” - Gary Brannan

Click here for advice.

Pro: Israel, EU, Megali Idea, Independent Kurdistan, Greater Armenia, Independent Scotland, Social Democracy, Rangers F.C
Anti: Palestine, Brexit, Greater Turkey, Total English rule over Britain, Trump, Putin, Communism, Fascism, IRA, Celtic F.C
iSideWith results | Discord Server | 8values Results | 9Axes Results

User avatar
Barboneia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10376
Founded: Sep 17, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Barboneia » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:02 am

Olerand wrote:You do what most other countries do and pay the workers a regular wage.

Yeah, this.

However, I don’t think that tipping should be abolished entirely. I don’t think it should be required, but if you want to tip someone for providing really good service you should be able to. And then even if you don’t, they’re still making money overall.
The Commonwealth of Barboneia
It all returns to nothing


User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20996
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:03 am

Just a thought: but maybe actually paying them decently?
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20996
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:04 am

Barboneia wrote:
Olerand wrote:You do what most other countries do and pay the workers a regular wage.

Yeah, this.

However, I don’t think that tipping should be abolished entirely. I don’t think it should be required, but if you want to tip someone for providing really good service you should be able to. And then even if you don’t, they’re still making money overall.


Tipping is a cultural thing at this point, even if servers got paid a living wage, people would still be likely to tip them on top of that for a good while.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11608
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:06 am

Give the waiters an hourly wage. Adjust it to some of what tips they were getting.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.28
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

User avatar
Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:08 am

Barboneia wrote:
Olerand wrote:You do what most other countries do and pay the workers a regular wage.

Yeah, this.

However, I don’t think that tipping should be abolished entirely. I don’t think it should be required, but if you want to tip someone for providing really good service you should be able to. And then even if you don’t, they’re still making money overall.

Which is the case everywhere else. It's not the norm to tip, but no one is stopping you. Except, I am told (I don't know if this is true), Japan, where it is insulting to tip or something.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:10 am

Uxupox wrote:
Post War America wrote:
If the workers work for themselves instead of for a capitalist, they will be able to earn the full value of their labor instead of losing a significant chunk of it to ensure the capitalist scalps profits.


Isn't that just making up your own restaurant and thus become an entrepreneur?


Not quite, it'd be more like forming a cooperative, which operates slightly differently in a Capitalist or Market Socialist economic system than a privately owned business. Basically the workers will run the business without an an actual owner, with the collective body of the workforce effectively stepping in to run the administrative aspects of the business, make the decisions. What this should mean in effect, is that instead of turning over profits to someone who just handles those aspects of managing a business, they'd instead be able to ensure that they could make a living wage by setting prices at the value of their labor, which is where the market part comes in in that they wouldn't really be able to set prices too far outside the norm if they'd want any hope of competing.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20996
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:10 am

Olerand wrote:
Barboneia wrote:Yeah, this.

However, I don’t think that tipping should be abolished entirely. I don’t think it should be required, but if you want to tip someone for providing really good service you should be able to. And then even if you don’t, they’re still making money overall.

Which is the case everywhere else. It's not the norm to tip, but no one is stopping you. Except, I am told (I don't know if this is true), Japan, where it is insulting to tip or something.


I was under the impression it was impolite to tip wherever tipping isn't common.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
Valentine Z
Senator
 
Posts: 4886
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Valentine Z » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:11 am

Only when the restaurants and the employers pay the servers instead of making them rely on the tips.

I have never got into tipping, but that's because of cultural difference, i.e. little to no restaurants in Singapore does that, let alone you can ask the customer to tip. (There is a 10% service charge, but that's it.)

The concept of tipping is lost when I am expected to pay 25-35% extra of the bill to tip, when the tip itself is meant for exceptional services.
NSSCRA 8: #7 - Clarissa Alanis Star || #15 - Jolyn Helen Ceeta || #31 - Gwen Tracer Allison
If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
Glory to De Sierlijke und Verwonderlijk Feline Utopia et its Heerlijk Autonomous Opperheerschappij ov Valentine Z !
• About me.
• You thought I'm a She. But it is I, a dude!
• Eat my freaking tranquility. - Zenyatta
• Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
• World Map is a cat playing with Australia.
• I REALLY hate that eye rolling smiley!
NEWS: ... Beep, Boop!

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:12 am

Olerand wrote:
Barboneia wrote:Yeah, this.

However, I don’t think that tipping should be abolished entirely. I don’t think it should be required, but if you want to tip someone for providing really good service you should be able to. And then even if you don’t, they’re still making money overall.

Which is the case everywhere else. It's not the norm to tip, but no one is stopping you. Except, I am told (I don't know if this is true), Japan, where it is insulting to tip or something.


It is seen as a bribe in Japanese which is considered offensive.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24158
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:14 am

Valrifell wrote:
Olerand wrote:Which is the case everywhere else. It's not the norm to tip, but no one is stopping you. Except, I am told (I don't know if this is true), Japan, where it is insulting to tip or something.


I was under the impression it was impolite to tip wherever tipping isn't common.

No in Japan it’s seen as wrong to to accept a tip
Elsewhere it’s wierd but they’ll take it
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39102
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:15 am

How about the radical idea of paying them a decent regular wage.
Scary Spooky Leftist #19879417 An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Loyal to Dragonstone and the King in the Narrow Sea

WHY BOOB SMALL? WHY YOU HATE?
-oppressed gamer
Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
Uxupox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13448
Founded: Nov 13, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Uxupox » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:16 am

Post War America wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
Isn't that just making up your own restaurant and thus become an entrepreneur?


Not quite, it'd be more like forming a cooperative, which operates slightly differently in a Capitalist or Market Socialist economic system than a privately owned business. Basically the workers will run the business without an an actual owner, with the collective body of the workforce effectively stepping in to run the administrative aspects of the business, make the decisions. What this should mean in effect, is that instead of turning over profits to someone who just handles those aspects of managing a business, they'd instead be able to ensure that they could make a living wage by setting prices at the value of their labor, which is where the market part comes in in that they wouldn't really be able to set prices too far outside the norm if they'd want any hope of competing.


There are plenty of barbers out there that get payed thousands of USD for the simple reasoning of exposure of the client. A restaurant under a cooperative system may in hindsight do the same and in fact does happen quite often.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:17 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:How about the radical idea of paying them a decent regular wage.


I'm not sue that's a radical idea tho... especially when I suggested the formation of a worker's coop.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11608
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:18 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:How about the radical idea of paying them a decent regular wage.

*mind explodes*

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!


I THOUGHT PAYING PEOPLE DECENTLY WAS COMMUNISM!
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.28
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

User avatar
Valentine Z
Senator
 
Posts: 4886
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Valentine Z » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:19 am

The South Falls wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:How about the radical idea of paying them a decent regular wage.

*mind explodes*

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!


I THOUGHT PAYING PEOPLE DECENTLY WAS COMMUNISM!


Freaking Capitalism, Ho!

(And a disclaimer that I'm not calling you a Ho. It's a reference.)
Last edited by Valentine Z on Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
NSSCRA 8: #7 - Clarissa Alanis Star || #15 - Jolyn Helen Ceeta || #31 - Gwen Tracer Allison
If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
Glory to De Sierlijke und Verwonderlijk Feline Utopia et its Heerlijk Autonomous Opperheerschappij ov Valentine Z !
• About me.
• You thought I'm a She. But it is I, a dude!
• Eat my freaking tranquility. - Zenyatta
• Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
• World Map is a cat playing with Australia.
• I REALLY hate that eye rolling smiley!
NEWS: ... Beep, Boop!

User avatar
Post War America
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5747
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:20 am

The South Falls wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:How about the radical idea of paying them a decent regular wage.

*mind explodes*

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!


I THOUGHT PAYING PEOPLE DECENTLY WAS COMMUNISM!


Indeed, anything less than allowing the "job creators" absolute freedom is Communism, which is why it begs the question. Why is Communism a bad thing?
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Abserdia, Aeritai, Bombadil, Catsfern, Crockerland, EastKekistan, ECKU, Fuseana, Greater Texia, Hargue II, Heloin, Jack Thomas Lang, Neanderthaland, Neo-Routhengard, Pacomia, Scomagia, Stellar Colonies, The Black Forrest, Tuthina

Advertisement

Remove ads