NationStates

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The point is belief does not make being inconsiderate to others suddenly not a dick move

The point remains that requesting other people believe a certain thing or at the very least say they do is not a simple issue of politeness.

The Batorys wrote:

Arcturus Novus wrote:Which is ironic, because if any language deserves to be ruined to the point of uselessness, it's French.

How would you be able to tell if it had been?

Wait you mean it hasn't already?

Valrifell wrote:

The Batorys wrote:How would you be able to tell if it had been?

Wait you mean it hasn't already?

Yeah, that's what I'm asking.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The point is belief does not make being inconsiderate to others suddenly not a dick move

The point remains that requesting other people believe a certain thing or at the very least say they do is not a simple issue of politeness.

Am I tying you down and forcing you to believe I’m a man? What torture techniques am I applying. Or am I literally just stating how I’d like to be treated and being sad I’m not treated that way?

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Because that requires people to think and we don’t want them straining themselves trying to be respectful to other people

Well there's also the issue that pronouns reference a state of being not a title. Demanding someone who does not believe you are female refer to you as female is demanding this person accept as fact something they do not believe to be true.

You've probably heard this before and it went right through one ear and right out the other, as in my experience most people I tell this to have been told this multiple times, but here we go: There is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is the term we use for describing whether the biology of being which reproduces sexually has been shaped to carry sperm gametes and egg gametes. Gender is how we refer to the sum of one's behavior, self-expression, appearance, and roles in society that is often associated with a corresponding sex but not irrevocably tied to it. Gender is also determined by the structure of one's brain. There are some differences between male and female brains and it has been shown that transgender people have a brain that matches their gender identity.

Snakes have a male and female sex, as do horses, as do humans, but horses and snakes do not have a gender. When one asks to be referred to by male or female pronouns, you using those pronouns does not mean "I am declaring that you have the chromosomes and reproductive system that match your gender identity." Transgender people do not deny their own biological reality. They are acutely aware of it. This should be obvious, as one would not experience gender dysphoria if they could not recognize their own biology.

Ideas about biological sex do not preclude recognition of gender identity. When a transwoman says "I am a woman", she is not saying "I have a functioning female reproductive system", she is saying she wants to be perceived and addressed in the way women are. She is asking you to recognize her identity. Therefore you cannot use claims about science or reality to get out of treating transgender people respectfully.

An analogy: Say a guy's parents named him something ridiculous, like Hippopotamus. This is the name on his birth certificate, his legal name, and naturally it caused him extreme embarrassment. So one day he decided to start going by Jim, and he asks you to call him Jim. Are you going to refuse on the basis of Jim not being his legal name? And when called out for refusing, will you complaining he is demanding that accept something that is not true?

Refusing to use the names and pronouns of transgender people isn't being principled and committed to reality, it's just being a jerk.

The Batorys wrote:

Arcturus Novus wrote:Which is ironic, because if any language deserves to be ruined to the point of uselessness, it's French.

How would you be able to tell if it had been?

I...

I don't know?

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Am I tying you down and forcing you to believe I’m a man? What torture techniques am I applying. Or am I literally just stating how I’d like to be treated and being sad I’m not treated that way?

This isn't about torture, it's just also not about politeness.

Page wrote:You've probably heard this before and it went right through one ear and right out the other, as in my experience most people I tell this to have been told this multiple times, but here we go: There is a difference between sex and gender.

Every one of these conversations includes someone pointing out that sex and gender aren't the same thing in a context where it absolutely positively does not fucking matter.

If someone does not believe that a transgender woman is in fact a woman then expecting them to refer to them as a woman is expecting them to conceal or alter their beliefs.

Aclion wrote:I am convinced at this point that the social justice movement is a french plot to take down the english language by rendering it completely unusable.

Indeed, it's not as if we already have a singular gender neutral pronoun that has been widely used and understood for centuries. Imagine how difficult it would be talk to about a person without designating them a gendered pronoun. They would be impossible to talk about. How could we possibly describe them?

You probably struggled to comprehend those sentences above? No? Looks like we get to respect peoples' preferred pronouns and still have a usable language after all.

Des-Bal wrote:If someone does not believe that a transgender woman is in fact a woman then expecting them to refer to them as a woman is expecting them to conceal or alter their beliefs.

One's gender identity is not a thing that is objectively true or false, it is their subjective experience, therefore you cannot say that you don't believe it.

Are you a Scientologist? (I'm assuming no as I'm making a point, but on the off chance you are, substitute another religion.) Do you believe in the dogma of Scientology? No. Would you say Scientology is objectively untrue? Perhaps. But if one says "I am a Scientologist", are you going to say "You are not a Scientologist because Scientology is wrong"? No, because that person's belief is part of their subjective experience. Regardless of whether Scientology is right or wrong, if someone believes in its dogma and their lives are influenced by Scientology, that person is a Scientologist, right?

Get it now? You can't disbelieve that a transwoman is a woman, because her being a woman is part of her subjective experience.

Page wrote:One's gender identity is not a thing that is objectively true or false, it is their subjective experience, therefore you cannot say that you don't believe it.

Except you can because people do. Hence the entire fucking issue. If someone says their gender is Explodinglaserfish you could easily imagine someone saying "no it fucking isn't" even if the person genuinely believes that. You can be wrong about how to best classify your subjective experience and this is still supposing that the speaker embraces that conception of gender.

Ah, transphobia. I think I hear an attack helicopter off in the distance.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Am I tying you down and forcing you to believe I’m a man? What torture techniques am I applying. Or am I literally just stating how I’d like to be treated and being sad I’m not treated that way?

This isn't about torture, it's just also not about politeness.

Page wrote:You've probably heard this before and it went right through one ear and right out the other, as in my experience most people I tell this to have been told this multiple times, but here we go: There is a difference between sex and gender.

Every one of these conversations includes someone pointing out that sex and gender aren't the same thing in a context where it absolutely positively does not fucking matter.

If someone does not believe that a transgender woman is in fact a woman then expecting them to refer to them as a woman is expecting them to conceal or alter their beliefs.

You’re right
I’m clearly forcing you to go against your beliefs by literally doing nothing to force you

Internationalist Bastard wrote:You’re right
I’m clearly forcing you to go against your beliefs by literally doing nothing to force you

I don't know why you quoted me when what you said had no relationship to what I said.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:You’re right
I’m clearly forcing you to go against your beliefs by literally doing nothing to force you

I don't know why you quoted me when what you said had no relationship to what I said.

The. WHAt pray tell is it about?

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The. WHAt pray tell is it about?

You're refuting the idea that you're "Forcing" people to do certain things, you've similarly refuted the idea that people are being tortured when I have really only pointed out that framing this as an issue of "politeness" neglected certain realities. You're either fighting strawmen or forgetting who you're arguing with.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:The. WHAt pray tell is it about?

You're refuting the idea that you're "Forcing" people to do certain things, you've similarly refuted the idea that people are being tortured when I have really only pointed out that framing this as an issue of "politeness" neglected certain realities. You're either fighting strawmen or forgetting who you're arguing with.

Because it simply is politeness
All I’m asking is to be treated as a woman
One can do as they please with that information

i honestly don't care about this, but I want to say one thing.

*breathes*

there are only 3 genders

*yeets back into the wilderness*

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Because it simply is politeness
All I’m asking is to be treated as a woman
One can do as they please with that information

No it's not.
Because if they believe you are not a woman what you're asking is for them to suppress or change their beliefs.
Still.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:

Des-Bal wrote:
This isn't about torture, it's just also not about politeness.



Every one of these conversations includes someone pointing out that sex and gender aren't the same thing in a context where it absolutely positively does not fucking matter.

If someone does not believe that a transgender woman is in fact a woman then expecting them to refer to them as a woman is expecting them to conceal or alter their beliefs.

You’re right
I’m clearly forcing you to go against your beliefs by literally doing nothing to force you

Oh the horror.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Because it simply is politeness
All I’m asking is to be treated as a woman
One can do as they please with that information

No it's not.
Because if they believe you are not a woman what you're asking is for them to suppress or change their beliefs.
Still.

Is it forcing if I’m not doing anything to force it?

Des-Bal wrote:

Page wrote:One's gender identity is not a thing that is objectively true or false, it is their subjective experience, therefore you cannot say that you don't believe it.

Except you can because people do. Hence the entire fucking issue. If someone says their gender is Explodinglaserfish you could easily imagine someone saying "no it fucking isn't" even if the person genuinely believes that. You can be wrong about how to best classify your subjective experience and this is still supposing that the speaker embraces that conception of gender.

What kind of clothes explodinglaserfish wear? What are their roles in their society and family? What is the personality of an explodinglaserfish like?

You gave an arbitrary ridiculous example, but it doesn't work, because we universally accept that the ideas of masculinity and femininity, everyone understands what these gender identities are, that there are experiences that are part of living as a gender. You cannot present something without any qualities such as explodinglaserfish and try to equivocate that with gender identities that do have qualities.

And if one were "wrong" about their gender identity, that would mean that person does not experience gender dysphoria and does not actually identify with the gender they say they do. But since all transgender people do, they aren't wrong.

If a cisgender man who has no gender dysphoria and identifies as a man claimed to be a woman for the sake of some objective, like getting cheaper alcohol at the bar, you could then say that person is not a woman, because that person does not have the experience of being a woman. But transgender people do have that experience.

You are trying to argue that transgender people are making a false claim, they are not.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:

Des-Bal wrote:
No it's not.
Because if they believe you are not a woman what you're asking is for them to suppress or change their beliefs.
Still.

Is it forcing if I’m not doing anything to force it?

All reactionaries are victim to the same fallacy. If they are criticized for their rude behavior, they claim that they are being oppressed and forced to do things they don't want to, when in reality they have the freedom to do as they please but are unable to accept that they must accept the consequences of their choices. If one does not treat a transgender person respectfully, they are going to be called out for it.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Is it forcing if I’m not doing anything to force it?

You're refuting the idea that you're "Forcing" people to do certain things, you've similarly refuted the idea that people are being tortured when I have really only pointed out that framing this as an issue of "politeness" neglected certain realities. You're either fighting strawmen or forgetting who you're arguing with.

The great part about this weird circle you're going in is that I don't have to write new posts.

Page wrote:
What kind of clothes explodinglaserfish wear? What are their roles in their society and family? What is the personality of an explodinglaserfish like?

You gave an arbitrary ridiculous example, but it doesn't work, because we universally accept that the ideas of masculinity and femininity, everyone understands what these gender identities are, that there are experiences that are part of living as a gender. You cannot present something without any qualities such as explodinglaserfish and try to equivocate that with gender identities that do have qualities.

And if one were "wrong" about their gender identity, that would mean that person does not experience gender dysphoria and does not actually identify with the gender they say they do. But since all transgender people do, they aren't wrong.

If a cisgender man who has no gender dysphoria and identifies as a man claimed to be a woman for the sake of some objective, like getting cheaper alcohol at the bar, you could then say that person is not a woman, because that person does not have the experience of being a woman. But transgender people do have that experience.

You are trying to argue that transgender people are making a false claim, they are not.

The point is that we can agree that for a person to say a thing, even if they believe it, does not make it true.

The entire purpose of Gender Dysphoria in the DSM V is so that there can be a mental illness associated with transgenderism that not all transgender people have, good job wrecking that.

Des-Bal wrote:

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Is it forcing if I’m not doing anything to force it?

You're refuting the idea that you're "Forcing" people to do certain things, you've similarly refuted the idea that people are being tortured when I have really only pointed out that framing this as an issue of "politeness" neglected certain realities. You're either fighting strawmen or forgetting who you're arguing with.

The great part about this weird circle you're going in is that I don't have to write new posts.

What confuses me is that you genuinely believe what you’re repeating