On the terms "males" and "females..."

[Almorea]

People screwing with our society like this at a time when technology is also advancing exponentially will pay a price. A human is either male or female with some rare medical exceptions.

We are living in the Kali Yuga, the age of dissolution and decadence.

[New haven america]

1. Why? It's perfectly grammatically correct.
2. The world isn't just black and white, not everything can be labeled or fit neatly into nice little groups or binaries, no matter how much you want them to.

1. Just comes out strange and forced.
2. Many things do in fact fit into neat little groups regardless of how much you'd like them to be complicated.

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

Also, let's be topical and look at politics: Not all conservatives and hillbilly gun nuts who want to overthrow the government and not all liberals city dwelling college educated kids. Yet because of the binary bubble that exists around those 2 groups, those stereotypes persist even though they're further from the truth.

[New haven america]

A human is either male or female with some rare medical exceptions.

Good job proving my point that there's more than just male and female within your own boring ramblings.

[Des-Bal]

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

Also, let's be topical and look at politics: Not all conservatives and hillbilly gun nuts who want to overthrow the government and not all liberals city dwelling college educated kids. Yet because of the binary bubble that exists around those 2 groups, those stereotypes persist even though they're further from the truth.

1.Nope just individuals.
2.I don't really see intersex people as being outside the binary. They're abnormalities not members of a different group.

You're also assuming that where a spectrum exists there can't be a binary division. A light switch can be at any number of angles but the light is either on or off.

[New haven america]

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

Also, let's be topical and look at politics: Not all conservatives and hillbilly gun nuts who want to overthrow the government and not all liberals city dwelling college educated kids. Yet because of the binary bubble that exists around those 2 groups, those stereotypes persist even though they're further from the truth.

1.Nope just individuals.
2.I don't really see intersex people as being outside the binary. They're abnormalities not members of a different group.

You're also assuming that where a spectrum exists there can't be a binary division. A light switch can be at any number of angles but the light is either on or off.

1. So if you have no problem saying that to non-uniform groups, why would you have that problem with non-uniform people?
2. But they are. Some biologically, some psychologically.

Except I'm not assuming anything. Also, you've never heard of light switches that can changes brightness or light dimmers? Really?

[Des-Bal]

1. So if you have no problem saying that to non-uniform groups, why would you have that problem with non-uniform people?
2. But they are. Some biologically, some psychologically.

Except I'm not assuming anything. Also, you've never heard of light switches that can changes brightness or light dimmers? Really?

1. Because it feels forced and awkward.
2. If you've got evidence I'll look at it.

1. Yes you are. 2. So what I did demonstrated that even with a spectrum you can have a binary, you on the other hand just demonstrated that dimmers exist.

[New haven america]

1. So if you have no problem saying that to non-uniform groups, why would you have that problem with non-uniform people?
2. But they are. Some biologically, some psychologically.

Except I'm not assuming anything. Also, you've never heard of light switches that can changes brightness or light dimmers? Really?

1. Because it feels forced and awkward.
2. If you've got evidence I'll look at it.

3. Yes you are. 4. So what I did demonstrated that even with a spectrum you can have a binary, you on the other hand just demonstrated that dimmers exist.

1. And yet you can do it in other situations because?
2. I just gave you evidence. Hell, finding sources on it is pretty fucking easy as well, even Wikipedia has it.

3. Except I'm not, because I'm the only one out of the 2 of us able to provide sources. Maybe when you can actually provide something of substance then you might have a leg to stand on.
4. False: You tried explaining that gender binaries are good because light switches exist in only On/Off states, I proved that your line of thinking wasn't correct and that your analogy sucked.

Would you like to provide any more analogies? I'm sure they won't do anything to help your case.

[Des-Bal]

1. And yet you can do it in other situations because?
2. I just gave you evidence. Hell, finding sources on it is pretty fucking easy as well, even Wikipedia has it.

3. Except I'm not, because I'm the only one out of the 2 of us able to provide sources. Maybe when you can actually provide something of substance then you might have a leg to stand on.
4. False: You tried explaining that gender binaries are good because light switches exist in only On/Off states, I proved that your line of thinking wasn't correct and that your analogy sucked.

1. Because in those situations it doesn't feel awkward or forced. It's like a fucking merry-go-round.
2. No, you really didn't. What in that article are you presenting as evidence?
3.I'm sorry did you just make a trip to wikipedia specifically to say that you were providing sources? This is not a debate, I'm telling you I see no reason to believe in a thing and you've yet to provide me anything that changes that.
4. Yeah that's absolutely not what happened, my point was that the existence of a spectrum doesn't imply that a binary cannot exist. Unless your arguing that there's no such thing as light switches there's not really anything for you to argue against.

[New haven america]

1. And yet you can do it in other situations because?
2. I just gave you evidence. Hell, finding sources on it is pretty fucking easy as well, even Wikipedia has it.

3. Except I'm not, because I'm the only one out of the 2 of us able to provide sources. Maybe when you can actually provide something of substance then you might have a leg to stand on.
4. False: You tried explaining that gender binaries are good because light switches exist in only On/Off states, I proved that your line of thinking wasn't correct and that your analogy sucked.

1. Because it feels strange and forced.
2. No, you really didn't. What in that article are you presenting as evidence?
3.I'm sorry did you just make a trip to wikipedia specifically to say that you were providing sources? This is not a debate, I'm telling you I see no reason to believe in a thing and you've yet to provide me anything that changes that.
4. Yeah that's absolutely not what happened, my point was that the existence of a spectrum doesn't imply that a binary cannot exist.

1. And you have yet to give reasons for why it does. So should we file that under "Useless Complaints" then?
2. I just did. Or are you incapable of clicking on links?
3. Because I didn't have to go much further, there's tons of articles about it right there. (Or do you not know about that feature?)
4. I see you don't understand how spectrums work. A spectrum is a measurement in between 2 extremes, in this case male-female would be the extremes, and everything in between (Including non-binary) would be the in between points.

Hell, the only reason that the male-female bianry exists is because of categorization from the 1800's, before that gender and sex was more of an open playing field than you'd like to think.

[Internationalist Bastard]

People screwing with our society like this at a time when technology is also advancing exponentially will pay a price. A human is either male or female with some rare medical exceptions.

We are living in the Kali Yuga, the age of dissolution and decadence.

The irony is your argument says gender is social

[Des-Bal]

1. And you have yet to give reasons for why it does. So should we file that under "Useless Complaints" then?
2. I just did. Or are you incapable of clicking on links?
3. Because I didn't have to go much further, there's tons of articles about it right there. (Or do you not know about that feature?)
4. I see you don't understand how spectrums work. A spectrum is a measurement in between 2 extremes, in this case male-female would be the extremes, and everything in between (Including non-binary) would be the in between points.

Hell, the only reason that the male-female bianry exists is because of categorization from the 1800's, before that gender and sex was more of an open playing field than you'd like to think.

1. We can file it under "subjective opinion that you've been poking for no clear reason"
2. No, you didn't. Once again tell me what you are actually presenting me with because it seems like you threw a wikipedia article at me solely to say that you had a source.
3.Right but it was totally unnecessary, it furthered none of your arguments you just made text green.
4.Yeah like the many, many different angles that a lightswitch could be at despite the fact that at any given position the lights are on or off. Hence the analogy.

Neat.

[New haven america]

1. And you have yet to give reasons for why it does. So should we file that under "Useless Complaints" then?
2. I just did. Or are you incapable of clicking on links?
3. Because I didn't have to go much further, there's tons of articles about it right there. (Or do you not know about that feature?)
4. I see you don't understand how spectrums work. A spectrum is a measurement in between 2 extremes, in this case male-female would be the extremes, and everything in between (Including non-binary) would be the in between points.

Hell, the only reason that the male-female bianry exists is because of categorization from the 1800's, before that gender and sex was more of an open playing field than you'd like to think.

1. We can file it under "subjective opinion that you've been poking for no clear reason"
2. No, you didn't. Once again tell me what you are actually presenting me with because it seems like you threw a wikipedia article at me solely to say that you had a source.
3.Right but it was totally unnecessary, it furthered none of your arguments you just made text green.
4.Yeah like the many, many different angles that a lightswitch could be at despite the fact that at any given position the lights are on or off. Hence the analogy.

1. Got it, you have no reason for your inability to use English correctly.
2. Did you actually read what was presented to you? (I'm gonna cuess that's gonna be a no)
3. Refer to #2
4. And yet we've already been over why that analogy is terrible. So I'm just gonna accept the fact that you don't understand how spectrums work.

[Des-Bal]

1. Got it, you have no reason for your inability to use English correctly.
2. Did you actually read what was presented to you? (I'm gonna cuess that's gonna be a no)
3. Refer to #2
4. And yet we've already been over why that analogy is terrible. So I'm just gonna accept the fact that you don't understand how spectrums work.

1. Isn't that a sassy way to address word choice.
2-4. Did I sift through a wikipedia article and all 47 of it's links to try and construct an argument for you? No, because that's insane. Make a claim and support it with evidence, don't ask me to read the entire internet in the hopes that eventually something will be pertinent to your claim.
4.No we haven't actually. You haven't said a single thing that actually suggested a flaw with the analogy you've just established you can't follow the thread of a conversation. I say not all animals lay eggs and present dogs as an example you say "well chickens exist so that's not right." Draw a line down the middle of a spectrum. You now have a binary. That is the point of the analogy that you are desperately trying to ignore.

[Tekania]

Words can have multiple meanings depending on context, I see no issue with "male" and "female" it can refer to biological sex, or it can refer to gender.

[Page]

People screwing with our society like this at a time when technology is also advancing exponentially will pay a price. A human is either male or female with some rare medical exceptions.

We are living in the Kali Yuga, the age of dissolution and decadence.

Please, elaborate. Tell me how the advancement of technology combined with treating transgender people with respect will screw us over in the end.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That still doesn't address the question of what other word to then use to refer to grown women and young girls combined.

Females. Just don't be cringy about it.

Wait, is this really an issue? Female and girl sound about the way to refer to women and girls. What’s the fuss now? Oh, wait. A LUNA thread making much ado about nothing. Carry on.

[Swagification]

[/quote]

What's so demanding or difficult about using "they" for non-binary people? Before any of us had ever heard of non-binary gender identities, we were already using the singular they to describe a singular person of unknown gender anyway. The singular they didn't start out as a political correctness thing, it's been around for hundreds of years because we all realized that saying "he or she" is snobby and pretentious.[/quote]

Look here is the thing, I respect peoples choice to be transgender or whatever. But as soon as they start invading into my life by telling me that I have to call them certain things because that its what they currently feel like, that is where I draw the line. I am free to say whatever I would like( and no the first amendment doesn't say 'Freedom of speech, unless it offends someone' ) and the person who it offends is free to cover their ears....

[Internationalist Bastard]

What's so demanding or difficult about using "they" for non-binary people? Before any of us had ever heard of non-binary gender identities, we were already using the singular they to describe a singular person of unknown gender anyway. The singular they didn't start out as a political correctness thing, it's been around for hundreds of years because we all realized that saying "he or she" is snobby and pretentious.[/quote]

Look here is the thing, I respect peoples choice to be transgender or whatever. But as soon as they start invading into my life by telling me that I have to call them certain things because that its what they currently feel like, that is where I draw the line. I am free to say whatever I would like( and no the first amendment doesn't say 'Freedom of speech, unless it offends someone' ) and the person who it offends is free to cover their ears....[/quote]
As I’ve said earlier
Freedom if speech is allowed, but it still makes you look like a jerk

[Geneviev]

What's so demanding or difficult about using "they" for non-binary people? Before any of us had ever heard of non-binary gender identities, we were already using the singular they to describe a singular person of unknown gender anyway. The singular they didn't start out as a political correctness thing, it's been around for hundreds of years because we all realized that saying "he or she" is snobby and pretentious.

Look here is the thing, I respect peoples choice to be transgender or whatever. But as soon as they start invading into my life by telling me that I have to call them certain things because that its what they currently feel like, that is where I draw the line. I am free to say whatever I would like( and no the first amendment doesn't say 'Freedom of speech, unless it offends someone' ) and the person who it offends is free to cover their ears....

People already expect you to call them certain things. Just referring to someone as they isn't much different than using their name or any other pronouns anyways. Free speech exists but being a decent person actually matters a lot too.

[SD_Film Artists]

1. Just comes out strange and forced.
2. Many things do in fact fit into neat little groups regardless of how much you'd like them to be complicated.

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

I'm more interested in why someone would consider themselves as non-binery/fluid rather than if it technically exists or not. For example, I don't spend much time in bars shouting at a TV football game while drowning in beer; but that doesn't mean that I'm not a man, it just means that I'm not a stereotypical man. Likewise, if a woman looks like a tomboy and loves football she's still 100% female, she's just not a stereotypical one.
If we're saying that not associating with your gender stereotype means that you're not truly that gender, then we're basically enforcing gender roles.

[Neutraligon]

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

I'm more interested in why someone would consider themselves as non-binery/fluid rather than if it technically exists or not. For example, I don't spend much time in bars shouting at a TV football game while drowning in beer; but that doesn't mean that I'm not a man, it just means that I'm not a stereotypical man. Likewise, if a woman looks like a tomboy and loves football she's still 100% female, she's just not a stereotypical one.
If we're saying that not associating with your gender stereotype means that you're not truly that gender, then we're basically enforcing gender roles.

I can answer for why I fall into the category of non-binary. When people first tried to explain being trans to me they asked me how I would feel if I suddenly woke up as a boy. So I imagined myself as a boy...and had no reaction to it. I can think of myself in a man's body and feel just as at home as if I think of myself in my current female body. Essentially I am non-binary because I can't feel gender dysphoria. This is sorta similar to those who are asexual.

[Internationalist Bastard]

1. Does it feel forced when you have to call groups of people who no one uniform sex or gender "They"?
2. Except we know that not to be true. Let's take biological sex for example: Among species that reproduce sexually, there exists those with 2 different sex organs, those with multiple sex chromosomes (XXY, XXX, etc...) those with no sex organs, etc... and yet apparently those people are supposed to fit on a nice little male-female binary because... reasons.

So if things like that can exist biologically, then obviously they can exist psychologically (Where gender is involved). So why doesn't being non-binary exist when we can see it all the time among humans?

I'm more interested in why someone would consider themselves as non-binery/fluid rather than if it technically exists or not. For example, I don't spend much time in bars shouting at a TV football game while drowning in beer; but that doesn't mean that I'm not a man, it just means that I'm not a stereotypical man. Likewise, if a woman looks like a tomboy and loves football she's still 100% female, she's just not a stereotypical one.
If we're saying that not associating with your gender stereotype means that you're not truly that gender, then we're basically enforcing gender roles.

To simplify
The feeling of being trans is waxing and waning and for some it’s more extreme

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

So I imagined myself as a boy...and had no reaction to it.

With all due respect, have you considered the possibility that underestimating the male sex drive had a role in that?

[Neutraligon]

So I imagined myself as a boy...and had no reaction to it.

With all due respect, have you considered the possibility that underestimating the male sex drive had a role in that?

I haven't underestimated the male sex drive.

[Diopolis]

I'm more interested in why someone would consider themselves as non-binery/fluid rather than if it technically exists or not. For example, I don't spend much time in bars shouting at a TV football game while drowning in beer; but that doesn't mean that I'm not a man, it just means that I'm not a stereotypical man. Likewise, if a woman looks like a tomboy and loves football she's still 100% female, she's just not a stereotypical one.
If we're saying that not associating with your gender stereotype means that you're not truly that gender, then we're basically enforcing gender roles.

I can answer for why I fall into the category of non-binary. When people first tried to explain being trans to me they asked me how I would feel if I suddenly woke up as a boy. So I imagined myself as a boy...and had no reaction to it. I can think of myself in a man's body and feel just as at home as if I think of myself in my current female body. Essentially I am non-binary because I can't feel gender dysphoria. This is sorta similar to those who are asexual.

I am very cisgendered male. I like being a male. I am attached to it.
However, if I try to imagine myself as a woman, there's not much of a reaction. It doesn't distress me. It would simply be different; I have no wish for it, but it doesn't disgust me.