Is Nationalism and the Nation State a Bad Thing?

[Pinch Me]

It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.
At the end of the day we are the same people, and there is no need let the difference if ethnicity and culture interfere with our desire to help others. If we can stop for a moment thinking of the country next door or on the other side of the world as the other tribe, and is all as one single tribe, we’d ultimately get more done

The problem is that pride in cultural identity gets mixed up with morality and justice. I think states are fundamentally based attempts to determine moral ideals, in theory decided by its citizens and enforced by a government.

Thinking your nation is better than others doesn't mean you think your nation should engage in wars with other nations.

[Kustonia]

I had a thread on the Hungarian question a month ago or so. Won't link to it.

So, as for nationalism itself: while I don't have a problem with it if it's just pride in what your ancestors (or if you're an immigrant, what your host people's ancestors) did to build the place up, it can be as productive of as much evil as good, simply by fostering a consciousness of in- and outgroups.

That fact should be recognized.

Literally, you're admitting that immigrants are parasites because you used the word "host" (Which they are).

If someone broke into your home, you would call the police or use a gun in self-defense, right? Nationalism is that safety net, the tool that you use to defend your homeland from foreign invasion and parasites. Nationalism is the panacea of world affairs.

[Internationalist Bastard]

It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.
At the end of the day we are the same people, and there is no need let the difference if ethnicity and culture interfere with our desire to help others. If we can stop for a moment thinking of the country next door or on the other side of the world as the other tribe, and is all as one single tribe, we’d ultimately get more done

The problem is that pride in cultural identity gets mixed up with morality and justice. I think states are fundamentally based attempts to determine moral ideals, in theory decided by its citizens and enforced by a government.

Thinking your nation is better than others doesn't mean you think your nation should engage in wars with other nations.

No, but as you said it spawns an ideological conflict. Our country is better. Our country is better because of our ideals. We are right they are wrong

[LiberNovusAmericae]

A nation should prioritize its own interests above those of other nations. Nationalism is not a bad thing, as long as its not ethnic nationalism or protectionism.

[Pinch Me]

The problem is that pride in cultural identity gets mixed up with morality and justice. I think states are fundamentally based attempts to determine moral ideals, in theory decided by its citizens and enforced by a government.

Thinking your nation is better than others doesn't mean you think your nation should engage in wars with other nations.

No, but as you said it spawns an ideological conflict. Our country is better. Our country is better because of our ideals. We are right they are wrong

I agree that believing a state government to be wrong does not mean that any citizen of that state must be wrong. But citizenship should mean a degree of loyalty - at least to the cause of bettering that state.

This is why I would like citizens to have more power over government so they can feel more committed to its institutions. Perhaps more decentralisation of states with relatively large populations.

[Trumptonium1]

A nation should prioritize its own interests above those of other nations. Nationalism is not a bad thing, as long as its not ethnic nationalism or protectionism.

Protectionism is literally prioritising own interests above those of over nations. And its good.

[The Great-German Empire]

A nation should prioritize its own interests above those of other nations. Nationalism is not a bad thing, as long as its not ethnic nationalism or protectionism.

Protectionism is pretty alright, actually. But EthNat is horrible, i agree.

[Dooom35796821595]

A nation should prioritize its own interests above those of other nations. Nationalism is not a bad thing, as long as its not ethnic nationalism or protectionism.

Protectionism is literally prioritising own interests above those of over nations. And its good.

No, it’s not. It’s a barrier to free trade and punishes the citizens of the nation with the protectionist policies.

[The Great-German Empire]

No, it’s not. It’s a barrier to free trade and punishes the citizens of the nation with the protectionist policies.

Free trade is not the Gospel of the Lord or anything - not that either of us cares about that all that much. It is a subjective policy that makes countries overly interdependent. America's industries were badly hit by its commitment to Free Trade instead of the American System; a rise in some dry numbers like the DOW Index doesn't change that fact.

[Mardla]

Not everyone wants to live with everyone else.

[Dooom35796821595]

Free trade is not the Gospel of the Lord or anything - not that either of us cares about that all that much. It is a subjective policy that makes countries overly interdependent. America's industries were badly hit by its commitment to Free Trade instead of the American System; a rise in some dry numbers like the DOW Index doesn't change that fact.

And interdependent countries are less likely to have wars due to the collateral damage. But I’m not suggesting one or the other, Free trade works for luxury industries, but limited protectionism can be essential for key industries like food security, power, and to help developing nations establish themselves.

[Trumptonium1]

Protectionism is literally prioritising own interests above those of over nations. And its good.

No, it’s not. It’s a barrier to free trade and punishes the citizens of the nation with the protectionist policies.

Barriers to free trade are fundamentally good. They protect domestic industry and jobs. Citizens aren't punished with protectionist policies, they are rewarded with opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have, and generally pay less in tax due to income from duties and less welfare around.

[Luziyca]

I had a thread on the Hungarian question a month ago or so. Won't link to it.

So, as for nationalism itself: while I don't have a problem with it if it's just pride in what your ancestors (or if you're an immigrant, what your host people's ancestors) did to build the place up, it can be as productive of as much evil as good, simply by fostering a consciousness of in- and outgroups.

That fact should be recognized.

Agreed with you regarding nationalism itself, since I am a civic nationalist.

[Dooom35796821595]

No, it’s not. It’s a barrier to free trade and punishes the citizens of the nation with the protectionist policies.

Barriers to free trade are fundamentally good. They protect domestic industry and jobs. Citizens aren't punished with protectionist policies, they are rewarded with opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have, and generally pay less in tax due to income from duties and less welfare around.

They can sometimes have uses, and sometimes are useless. For example, if microchips had to be made in the USA, no one would be able to afford a computer. The best solution is often a healthy balance of policies.

[Bienenhalde]

I think nationalism is as bad as any other form of collectivism when it stokes the fire of an us-vs-them mentality onto its people.

Individualism stokes a me-vs-everyone else mentality. How is that any better?

[Dahon]

I had a thread on the Hungarian question a month ago or so. Won't link to it.

So, as for nationalism itself: while I don't have a problem with it if it's just pride in what your ancestors (or if you're an immigrant, what your host people's ancestors) did to build the place up, it can be as productive of as much evil as good, simply by fostering a consciousness of in- and outgroups.

That fact should be recognized.

Literally, you're admitting that immigrants are parasites because you used the word "host" (Which they are).

If someone broke into your home, you would call the police or use a gun in self-defense, right? Nationalism is that safety net, the tool that you use to defend your homeland from foreign invasion and parasites. Nationalism is the panacea of world affairs.

... as I can't express myself more violently, let me put my objection to your assumption this way: I did not say or imply anything of the sort. Stop being pedantic so you can put your disgusting, repulsive ideology in my mouth.

[Zandovia]

Hi, sometimes I scan through the BBC website to see what is happening in the "world" and I saw two news reports that generated the idea for the above question. Now I only read the headlines and scanned the first few paragraphs of the news reports so I may have misjudged the articles but there was a few things that grabbed my attention that others might be interested in.

The news reports concerns Hungary - and the EU is going to debate disciplining Hungary because of Hungary's "decision to prioritise national interest above that of the EU."

That is, it seems that Hungary might be disciplined because "it is prioritising national interests over EU interests".

Overall it seems that the main issue is how important do you value nationalism and the nation state over pluralism and being part of something bigger.
No
BBC Headline 1: "Nationalism in heart of Europe needles EU"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43157234
BBC Headline 2: "European Parliament to debate disciplining Hungary"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45477025

[Nova Colombian Confederation]

No.

I love my motherland, so don't talk shit about her please.

[Dark Socialism]

No.

I love my motherland, so don't talk shit about her please.

I love America but I talk shit about it all the time

[Second Empire of America]

Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work.

Austria-Hungary worked just fine until the Allies stupidly broke it up after WWI. The smaller countries it was split into didn't do very well. They all ended up being invaded by the Nazis because the new tiny nations were too weak on their own to stop them. After that, most of them got turned into Soviet puppet states. Only a Nazi, a Stalinist, or someone really bad at history would believe breaking up Austria-Hungary was good for the region.

[Loben]

Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work.

Austria-Hungary worked just fine until the Allies stupidly broke it up after WWI. The smaller countries it was split into didn't do very well. They all ended up being invaded by the Nazis because the new tiny nations were too weak on their own to stop them. After that, most of them got turned into Soviet puppet states. Only a Nazi, a Stalinist, or someone really bad at history would believe breaking up Austria-Hungary was good for the region.

*wrong*

[Second Empire of America]

It’s important to establish the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism, loving ones country, is fine. Many people find pride in their home states, provinces, towns. The problem is that nationalism is more of a, my country is better then yours. One could have a jolly argument about Chicago vs New York, at the end of the day it’s just an argument about which city they prefer. If people came to blows over the matter, it’s absurd.

I understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. I oppose both of them. Patriotism can very easily lead to nationalism, and I utterly despise nationalism.

[Kowani]

Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work.

Austria-Hungary worked just fine until the Allies stupidly broke it up after WWI. The smaller countries it was split into didn't do very well. They all ended up being invaded by the Nazis because the new tiny nations were too weak on their own to stop them. After that, most of them got turned into Soviet puppet states. Only a Nazi, a Stalinist, or someone really bad at history would believe breaking up Austria-Hungary was good for the region.

Gavrillo Princip says hi.

[NERVUN]

As with many things, it can be taken to extremes.

Unfortunately, nationalism seems to be something that can easily be taken to extremes.

[Napkiraly]

No.