Is Nationalism and the Nation State a Bad Thing?

[Arcturus Novus]

Some countries are better than others. That's just the way it is. I wouldn't say Somalia is equal to Norway.

My problem is that leads to a conclusion that the better off nations should then not help the worst off nations, and then we use their continued suffering as a justification for why those nations are awful
And that’s not just the fault of rich nations. The fear of colonialism is extreme and often leads to people refusing aid

To be fair, the latter is partly justified. Even in recent years, we've had situations like Monsanto trying to sell their proprietary, high-maintenance grain seeds to Haiti as "aid", when it was really just thinly-veiled economic exploitation.

[Trumptonium1]

Nationalism and the concept of the nation state can be both good and bad depending on how it is presented and adopted.

Nationalism and nation-states in Europe are a stupid idea nowadays, because the most populated European countries have the population of a small Chinese province, while the whole European continent has one-third of the population of China. European countries need to unite now to face the global competition.

Why should Germans be forced to fund piss poor provinces in Italy to enter the 21st century?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Nationalism and nation-states in Europe are a stupid idea nowadays, because the most populated European countries have the population of a small Chinese province, while the whole European continent has one-third of the population of China. European countries need to unite now to face the global competition.

Why should Germans be forced to fund piss poor provinces in Italy to enter the 21st century?

Why should Italians pay for it?

[Carl Hasty]

Why should Germans be forced to fund piss poor provinces in Italy to enter the 21st century?

Why should Italians pay for it?

Yea that's Africa not Italy. Get rid of the Terrone!

[Kaggeceria]

Why do you think Europe has the map it does now? Why do you think Yugoslavia and Austria-Hungary no longer exist? They split apart into smaller countries because having them all united under one banner didn't fucking work. Now, for the most part, the Balkans are relatively peaceful. And none of them have nukes.

Yes, wars often do flare up. But for the most part, having people exercise sovereignty over themselves has allowed for peace.

Those wars were still flaring up in the Balkans until the 90s, and we continue to see them in Africa and the Middle East. It doesn’t look that peaceful to me

The Balkans are relatively peaceful today. And the reason the Middle East sucks us because it was carved up into a bunch of ridiculous nations that make no sense and rule over different ethnic groups. The Kurds want their own nation-state but no one gives it to them. The same problem can largely be found in Africa where tribal tensions continue to exist.

Self-governance and the nation-state are the path to peace and harmony.

[Kaggeceria]

Some countries are better than others. That's just the way it is. I wouldn't say Somalia is equal to Norway.

My problem is that leads to a conclusion that the better off nations should then not help the worst off nations, and then we use their continued suffering as a justification for why those nations are awful
And that’s not just the fault of rich nations. The fear of colonialism is extreme and often leads to people refusing aid

What countries in Africa refuse aid? We send billions to them. But they're so corrupt that almost none of it actually reaches their people.

[Trumptonium1]

Why should Germans be forced to fund piss poor provinces in Italy to enter the 21st century?

Why should Italians pay for it?

Well if they don't want internal improvement that's their choice isn't it.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Those wars were still flaring up in the Balkans until the 90s, and we continue to see them in Africa and the Middle East. It doesn’t look that peaceful to me

The Balkans are relatively peaceful today. And the reason the Middle East sucks us because it was carved up into a bunch of ridiculous nations that make no sense and rule over different ethnic groups. The Kurds want their own nation-state but no one gives it to them. The same problem can largely be found in Africa where tribal tensions continue to exist.

Self-governance and the nation-state are the path to peace and harmony.

And so you believe the answer is to fan the idea these tribes need to have their own nation rather than encouraging them to set aside their differences and work together to help their own communities thrive?
Is it better to be starving and not having to interact with people who are different, or to be fed and having to see someone who comes from the other tribe in your village?

[Kaggeceria]

The Balkans are relatively peaceful today. And the reason the Middle East sucks us because it was carved up into a bunch of ridiculous nations that make no sense and rule over different ethnic groups. The Kurds want their own nation-state but no one gives it to them. The same problem can largely be found in Africa where tribal tensions continue to exist.

Self-governance and the nation-state are the path to peace and harmony.

And so you believe the answer is to fan the idea these tribes need to have their own nation rather than encouraging them to set aside their differences and work together to help their own communities thrive?
Is it better to be starving and not having to interact with people who are different, or to be fed and having to see someone who comes from the other tribe in your village?

My point is that cramming people together and telling them to shut up and get along is stupid and doesn't always work. Self-governance and nations cooperating together is the better option rather than some supranational government.

[Carl Hasty]

It has been PROVEN, with facts and logic, that the nation state is the ONLY way to preserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. The only alternative to nationalism is imperialism, which has nothing to do with nationalism, and which the failed Austro-Hungarian Empire is a prime example of. The best example of nationalism protecting human rights today is Israel, where when examining the constitutionality of killing Palestinians Supreme Court President Emeritus Aharon Barak argued that a ruling on the question had to respect the fact that “unlawful combatants are not beyond the law. They are not ‘outlaws.’ God created them as well in his image. Their human dignity as well is to be honored.” Barak went on to argue for an expanded notion of what counts as “direct participation” in terrorist activity, so as to make Israel’s killings compatible with international customary law.

Tell me the next time you see something like that from the European Union (Empire)!

[Ghost Land]

I'm against states, nation-states, and NationStates, in no particular order.

What did this site ever do to you?

Personally, I see nothing inherently wrong with nationalism, and NationStates is the greatest website of all time.

[Carl Hasty]

My problem is that leads to a conclusion that the better off nations should then not help the worst off nations, and then we use their continued suffering as a justification for why those nations are awful
And that’s not just the fault of rich nations. The fear of colonialism is extreme and often leads to people refusing aid

What countries in Africa refuse aid? We send billions to them. But they're so corrupt that almost none of it actually reaches their people.

Eritrea actually does.

[Internationalist Bastard]

My problem is that leads to a conclusion that the better off nations should then not help the worst off nations, and then we use their continued suffering as a justification for why those nations are awful
And that’s not just the fault of rich nations. The fear of colonialism is extreme and often leads to people refusing aid

What countries in Africa refuse aid? We send billions to them. But they're so corrupt that almost none of it actually reaches their people.

It’s not the governments
I’m speakas a former peacekeeper when I say that many people, really don’t want help unless it’s from their own people. I consider it a silly byproduct of tribal thinking that nationalism relies on, but such is pife

[Internationalist Bastard]

It has been PROVEN, with facts and logic, that the nation state is the ONLY way to preserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. The only alternative to nationalism is imperialism, which has nothing to do with nationalism, and which the failed Austro-Hungarian Empire is a prime example of. The best example of nationalism protecting human rights today is Israel, where when examining the constitutionality of killing Palestinians Supreme Court President Emeritus Aharon Barak argued that a ruling on the question had to respect the fact that “unlawful combatants are not beyond the law. They are not ‘outlaws.’ God created them as well in his image. Their human dignity as well is to be honored.” Barak went on to argue for an expanded notion of what counts as “direct participation” in terrorist activity, so as to make Israel’s killings compatible with international customary law.

Tell me the next time you see something like that from the European Union (Empire)!

It’s the only way? Why not increase liberty, have city states?

[Carl Hasty]

In all seriousness nations suck. I have no nation, and at times I wish all nations at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs nationalism to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap.

[Internationalist Bastard]

And so you believe the answer is to fan the idea these tribes need to have their own nation rather than encouraging them to set aside their differences and work together to help their own communities thrive?
Is it better to be starving and not having to interact with people who are different, or to be fed and having to see someone who comes from the other tribe in your village?

My point is that cramming people together and telling them to shut up and get along is stupid and doesn't always work. Self-governance and nations cooperating together is the better option rather than some supranational government.

Which is why I support economic unions above all else. If that blossoms into a peaceful federation that’s wonderful, but I’m in the business of practicality these days

[Kaggeceria]

What countries in Africa refuse aid? We send billions to them. But they're so corrupt that almost none of it actually reaches their people.

It’s not the governments
I’m speakas a former peacekeeper when I say that many people, really don’t want help unless it’s from their own people. I consider it a silly byproduct of tribal thinking that nationalism relies on, but such is pife

And it's also government corruption.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Why should Italians pay for it?

Well if they don't want internal improvement that's their choice isn't it.

Very true

[Internationalist Bastard]

It’s not the governments
I’m speakas a former peacekeeper when I say that many people, really don’t want help unless it’s from their own people. I consider it a silly byproduct of tribal thinking that nationalism relies on, but such is pife

And it's also government corruption.

Very much so

[Kaggeceria]

My point is that cramming people together and telling them to shut up and get along is stupid and doesn't always work. Self-governance and nations cooperating together is the better option rather than some supranational government.

Which is why I support economic unions above all else. If that blossoms into a peaceful federation that’s wonderful, but I’m in the business of practicality these days

Cool, then we can agree.

[The Liberated Territories]

I think nationalism is as bad as any other form of collectivism when it stokes the fire of an us-vs-them mentality onto its people.

[Carl Hasty]

Nationalism and nation-states in Europe are a stupid idea nowadays, because the most populated European countries have the population of a small Chinese province, while the whole European continent has one-third of the population of China. European countries need to unite now to face the global competition.

Why should Germans be forced to fund piss poor provinces in Italy to enter the 21st century?

Why should Germany be forced to see China take over its neighbors poor Italian province by poor Italian province?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Which is why I support economic unions above all else. If that blossoms into a peaceful federation that’s wonderful, but I’m in the business of practicality these days

Cool, then we can agree.

Very good
At its core, all my ideology requires is the nations of the world working together towards a better and more peaceful future

[Carl Hasty]

I think nationalism is as bad as any other form of collectivism when it stokes the fire of an us-vs-them mentality onto its people.

It had some purposes in the 19th Century but it's mainly shit at this point. We should view nationalism as a train: you take it where you need to go and then you get off.

I agree with this view of how we should approach it: https://www.liberalcurrents.com/jacob-levys-liberalism-of-tragedy/

[Internationalist Bastard]

I think nationalism is as bad as any other form of collectivism when it stokes the fire of an us-vs-them mentality onto its people.

It had some purposes in the 19th Century but it's mainly shit at this point. We should view nationalism as a train: you take it where you need to go and then you get off.

I agree with this view of how we should approach it: https://www.liberalcurrents.com/jacob-levys-liberalism-of-tragedy/

I often ponder how far back the train of nationalism goes before ww1 started. Traced it back to Napoleon, seeing if I can go further