Having children and selfishness

[The Batorys]

Women (and to a lesser extent, men), who are open about not wanting to have children are often accused of being "selfish."

Perhaps those accusing them of such are doing so because they see something morally wrong with living life for oneself. But this got me thinking (to the limited degree I'm capable of).

Why is it perceived as selfish to not want kids, but wanting to have children is not?

The way I was thinking, having children is perhaps actually more selfish. Parents have kids entirely to suit their own desires. Existence is neither requested (obviously it can't be) nor consensual. To have a child is to force another being into a world that they will then have to struggle to survive in, whose life will be largely dominated by exchanging hours of time (a finite resource for just about every living thing) and labor for resources necessary to continue existing. While having children may bring the parents some happiness and sense of purpose, this is not necessarily the case for their offspring. How can this idea, "Let's bring another conscious being into the world just because," be described as selfless? It certainly seems selfish to me.

As cliched as it sounds to say, no one chooses to exist.

One might say "well just kill yourself, then," but to suggest this is to ignore the emotional ties and considerations that bind most of us.

So why is this the case, that the decision to have children is seldom regarded as selfish, yet the decision not to, often is?

Edit: corrected a typo.

[Chan Island]

Let's flip it around then: who are you to deny a consciousness existence?

You can't ask it if it wants to exist, true, but then again that consciousness cannot do anything if it doesn't exist. If it does exist, sure, maybe it will struggle. But it will also love, laugh, bring joy into the lives of others, have opinions, play, admire and sleep. And, even if despite all of that, the new consciousness still doesn't want to exist.... well, it can do so. But none of those choices can be made if the thing doesn't exist in the first place.

Ultimately, it is a practical argument too. Human society cannot exist without getting newer generations of humans to replace the older ones who are relinquishing their mortal coil. If nobody was having children, then humans would become extinct within 150 years tops.

[Andsed]

Woman (and to a lesser extent, men), who are open about not wanting to have children are often accused of being "selfish."

Perhaps those accusing them of such are doing so because they see something morally wrong with living life for oneself. But this got me thinking (to the limited degree I'm capable of).

Why is it perceived as selfish to not want kids, but wanting to have children is not?

The way I was thinking, having children is perhaps actually more selfish. Parents have kids entirely to suit their own desires. Existence is neither requested (obviously it can't be) nor consensual. To have a child is to force another being into a world that they will then have to struggle to survive in, whose life will be largely dominated by exchanging hours of time (a finite resource for just about every living thing) and labor for resources necessary to continue existing. While having children may bring the parents some happiness and sense of purpose, this is not necessarily the case for their offspring. How can this idea, "Let's bring another conscious being into the world just because," be described as selfless? It certainly seems selfish to me.

As cliched as it sounds to say, no one chooses to exist.

One might say "well just kill yourself, then," but to suggest this is to ignore the emotional ties and considerations that bind most of us.

So why is this the case, that the decision to have children is seldom regarded as selfish, yet the decision not to, often is?

Well I have never encountered this kind of stuff but I have heard of it so I don't have much personal experience but here is what I think. I think people don't regard having kids as selfish since you are birthing new life and bringing someone else life and all of the great experiences coming with that. As for why people say not having kids is selfish... I have no real answer for that but if someone actually does think that then they are an asshole in my opinion. Also I don't know if I would say this kind of situation comes off often since I have rarely seen or hear it happen. I may be wrong though about it not happening often because again I don't have much experience with this.

[Gig em Aggies]

Let's flip it around then: who are you to deny a consciousness existence?

You can't ask it if it wants to exist, true, but then again that consciousness cannot do anything if it doesn't exist. If it does exist, sure, maybe it will struggle. But it will also love, laugh, bring joy into the lives of others, have opinions, play, admire and sleep. And, even if despite all of that, the new consciousness still doesn't want to exist.... well, it can do so. But none of those choices can be made if the thing doesn't exist in the first place.

Ultimately, it is a practical argument too. Human society cannot exist without getting newer generations of humans to replace the older ones who are relinquishing their mortal coil. If nobody was having children, then humans would become extinct within 150 years tops.

No duh but what the op is saying is that some are saying that people who don't have children are being selfish which is not true some people are not suited to be parents just because their not suited for the job. Plus it's not like we struggling to continue the human race, we're not gonna turn into a Children of Men society at all so it's a safe bet humans will continue to reign supreme until we leave for a new world.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Having children is a very personal choice, nobody should be judged for not wanting one

[Diopolis]

I can't imagine having children and not loving them. So there's that.
There's also a stereotype that men are only interested in sex and avoiding commitment. A child is a pretty big commitment. That probably ties into it.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I often wonder, OP, if it has something to do with how many people view roles in society. Which is in and of itself fucked. As a woman who's 38 years old and who hasn't had a child (not that I am very keen on the idea, mind you, although it could be a possibility, who knows), I have been asked, much to my annoyance, far too many times why I haven't had any kids at my age. By both friends, family and passing acquaintances.

My answer: we all come to this world for different purposes. Some for parenting, some for other paths. It's fine if a woman doesn't wish to become a mother. Or a man a father. It's not selfish to want to live life for oneself, a career, a partner, or art or whatever. I think that it is selfish to constantly, however, ask someone why they haven't have kids. It's none of our business what a woman decides to do with her uterus. Or a man with his sperm.

Not everyone comes to this planet to spawn and raise kids. And that's ok. At least they have the courtesy or bravery to admit that it is not something they wish to do and we, as a society, should stop asking, or being so nosy. Personal choice and all. That's all you need, if at all, to know.

[Saiwania]

There is no selfishness if the person in question can't reproduce to begin with, or is unlikely to. But if someone could but consciously chooses not to, they are pretty much to blame. Remember when Onan pulled out of his brother's wife and spilled his seed onto the ground to waste it. It had offended Yahweh so much that he was slain right then and there.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

There is no selfishness if the person in question can't reproduce to begin with, or is unlikely to. But if someone could but consciously chooses not to, they are pretty much to blame.

Not really. Someone, even if they can reproduce, is not under any obligation to you or anyone else, to have kids if that isn't what they want. They owe you or owe me or anyone else anything.

[Saiwania]

Not really. Someone, even if they can reproduce, is not under any obligation to you or anyone else, to have kids if that isn't what they want. They owe you or owe me or anyone else anything.

There is no obligation, but the decision to go in that direction is not without consequence. This is fair in my view.

Personally, I highly disapprove of the high fertility of non-White countries on the grounds that they have too many children to begin with and aren't economically well off enough to feed or educate said people. Those places could become richer if they went to a more sustainable rate. 2 or 3 per household at most. If those countries have 6+ per household, it is alarming and demands swift action to counter this.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I highly disapprove of the high fertility of non-White countries on the grounds that...

You and your white supremacist bullshit. It's tiresome and it's just fucking stupid.

[Suhkkot]

I don't believe it is selfish to not have children. Selfishness should be defined with nuance.

[NERVUN]

Ah, this again?

What if I told you that given the wide range of reasons for or against having children that people can have, that it is downright impossible to make a sweeping generalization about this topic? It comes down to individual choice. Some people are definitely selfish for choosing to have children, and some are for not having children. But unless you're ASKING everyone as to why they did, it's kinda bunk.

As for the whole 'I didn't ask to be born' cry of teenagers everywhere, they didn't ask not to be either. That's the problem with not existing, it's rather hard to poll for opinion. Buuuuuut, on the average, most people find life to be sweet enough to continue to survive, thrive, and struggle to NOT leave the world, so...

[Auzkhia]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

In someways, I am doing an act of mercy, sparing a child from my negligence and giving them the chance to be born to someone that will care for and love them unconditionally.

Mind you, if you ask people why they have kids, they will usually start with the phrase "I want". Plus, why make a new child when there are children not in proper care? Ultimately it's all a personal choice, but people often crack open ethics to justify and explain why they made that choice. Plus, consider all the parents who treat their children as extensions of themselves, and live through their children. They see children as a shot for second chances. If you didn't win the big game, then surely your child will, but there is no guarantee that little Johnny will ever like sports. I know I have different interests and beliefs than my parents. Too many children learn that their parents love them conditionally despite preaching of unconditional love. It is selfish to treat and presume children will be the parents' "mini-me", when in fact that children will be completely different persons and the only connection between them are just genetic and pure circumstance and chance.

[Telconi]

I highly disapprove of the high fertility of non-White countries on the grounds that...

You and your white supremacist bullshit. It's tiresome and it's just fucking stupid.

Is anyone else's white supremacist bullshit not tiresome and stupid?

[Diopolis]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I often wonder, OP, if it has something to do with how many people view roles in society. Which is in and of itself fucked. As a woman who's 38 years old and who hasn't had a child (not that I am very keen on the idea, mind you, although it could be a possibility, who knows), I have been asked, much to my annoyance, far too many times why I haven't had any kids at my age. By both friends, family and passing acquaintances.

My answer: we all come to this world for different purposes. Some for parenting, some for other paths. It's fine if a woman doesn't wish to become a mother. Or a man a father. It's not selfish to want to live life for oneself, a career, a partner, or art or whatever. I think that it is selfish to constantly, however, ask someone why they haven't have kids. It's none of our business what a woman decides to do with her uterus. Or a man with his sperm.

Not everyone comes to this planet to spawn and raise kids. And that's ok. At least they have the courtesy or bravery to admit that it is not something they wish to do and we, as a society, should stop asking, or being so nosy. Personal choice and all. That's all you need, if at all, to know.

Yeah that’s just rude

[Senkaku]

Fuck, given how Earth is faring, I think having kids is a pretty selfish decision. You get to feel good about raising them or whatever, and in return the planet dies (with them still on it, but after you're gone).

[Internationalist Bastard]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

Lots of people don’t like kids
It’s a rather normal thing

[Andsed]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

Not when said children are having a temper tantrum. Seriously have you seen that kind of shit it is simultaneously annoying and scary as hell.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

Not when said children are having a temper tantrum. Seriously have you seen that kind of shit it is simultaneously annoying and scary as hell.

I’m very afraid of being a parent for exactly the fact I don’t know how I’d react to that

[Fartsniffage]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

I like other peoples kids. The kind I can just give back when they're crying or gross or sticky.

I have a great relationship with the 7 year old and 3 year old that live next to my parents. The mother is amazed that the 3 year old actually listens to me. I haven't told her yet that the reason is that the first time he kicked me I put him in the bin by his ankles.

[Esternial]

Having or not having children isn't inherently selfish. Depends on your reasons.

Also, being selfish isn't necessarily negative. If you just don't want a child to take care of it could be seen as selfish, but in no way can you see that desire as negative.

I can see more negatively selfish reasons why people would have kids than not.

[Saiwania]

Lots of people don’t like kids. It’s a rather normal thing

Most children don't become likable per say, until around 5 years of age or older. When a child just communicates non-verbally or via crying, they're more like an it. But given enough time, past a certain age- they do develop an actual personality and at that stage, it gets easier.

[Lord Dominator]

I do not want kids at all and I do plan on keeping my word. I see it as self-care. Am I selfish for trying to care of myself first? I sometimes forget to drink water and to eat. If I forget to nourish myself, then how can I be expect to make sure a child is fed? Plus I have other loads of reasons such as money and personal distaste of human children, to be frank I'd be a horrible parent and I rather not exist than to have a bad life, and I even feel reluctant to take on a pet.

I understand most of what you say, but how do you not like kids? I thought everyone liked children.

I like children, just in small doses