Saudis murder Washington Post writer

[Greater Cesnica]

Oil is a hell of a drug.

*Hundred billion dollar arms deals

That too. The whole thing is just stupid. The U.S should have distanced their-selves from the Saudis after 9/11 or even when the bombardment of Yemen began.

[The Archregimancy]

Well, the thing is, contrary to public perception, Saudi Arabia has never been an absolute monarchy. The Crown Prince is trying very hard to turn it into a normal Gulf absolute monarchy under the guise of 'reform', but traditionally all three historical Saudi States have been oligarchic diarchies.

This isn't quite as abstruse a point as it may seem; it's crucial to understanding what happened in Istanbul.

For most of the Saudi period, going back to the 18th century, power has been divided between the House of Saud, who control the political sphere, and the Al ash-Sheikh (the descendants of al-Wahhab), who control the religious sphere. The Saudi states result from a pact between the two families to divide the relevant state institutions; power struggles within the two houses were common in the past (note that two of the first three kings of modern Saudi Arabia were either deposed or assassinated). The Saudi state is certainly totalitarian and authoritarian, but it has never been an absolute monarchy.

The pact is now breaking down. Crown Prince Mohammed has marginalised his opponents within his own house, and is also simultaneously trying to cut back the power of the Al ash-Sheikh. This should, in theory, allow him to act more like a traditional absolute monarch - in other words, act with total impunity. It's in this light that we should understand the Khashoggi murder.

Unfortunately for the Crown Prince, he might have misjudged his moment; his power might not be totally secure yet.

You should go on Wikipedia and edit the article on absolute monarchy.

Hardly.

But there is a need for people outside the Gulf to better understand what's happening in Saudi Arabia rather than dismissing the situation as typical of an absolute monarchy. Saudi Arabia is a deeply unpleasant totalitarian theocratic autocratic state, but it's not a traditional absolute monarchy as most Europeans and North Americans understand that concept.

The Crown Prince's attempts to position himself as a moderniser and reformer have nothing to do with liberalising Saudi politics. They're solely about strengthening the position of Mohammed bin Salman. Making some token moves to liberalise religious restrictions aren't about women's rights or opening cinemas; they're entirely about weakening the power of the Ulema and the Al ash-Sheikh so that they can no longer challenge the power of the al Saud. Similarly, positioning himself as the inheritor of traditional primogeniture descent (as opposed to the rotation of the monarchy between the different subsets of the core royal family that existed previously) has little to do with modernising state structures, and everything to do with consolidating his own power at the expense of the other branches of the central House of Saud.

This in turn explains why Saudi Arabia has been behaving more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship, and throwing its weight around more outside its own borders, since the accession of King Salman - because under Crown Prince Mohammed, it has become more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship.

The irony is that Saudi Arabia worked (to the extent that is does work; opinions there may vary) precisely because it was an oligarchical authoritarian state rather than a centralised monarchical authoritarian state. So long as power was shared between different power centres, those same power centres were invested in maintaining the state structures.

Whether that's still the case under a centralised authoritarian primogeniture monarchy where power is no longer shared remains an open question - and helps explain why the Crown Prince's 'reforms' are more of a gamble than most people outside of the GCC realise. The al Saud - al ash-Sheikh alliance dates back to the 1740s (the present kingdom is the third Saudi state); that's a lot of history for one young man in his early 30s to overturn so quickly.

[Caracasus]

You should go on Wikipedia and edit the article on absolute monarchy.

Hardly.

But there is a need for people outside the Gulf to better understand what's happening in Saudi Arabia rather than dismissing the situation as typical of an absolute monarchy. Saudi Arabia is a deeply unpleasant totalitarian theocratic autocratic state, but it's not a traditional absolute monarchy as most Europeans and North Americans understand that concept.

The Crown Prince's attempts to position himself as a moderniser and reformer have nothing to do with liberalising Saudi politics. They're solely about strengthening the position of Mohammed bin Salman. Making some token moves to liberalise religious restrictions aren't about women's rights or opening cinemas; they're entirely about weakening the power of the Ulema and the Al ash-Sheikh so that they can no longer challenge the power of the al Saud. Similarly, positioning himself as the inheritor of traditional primogeniture descent (as opposed to the rotation of the monarchy between the different subsets of the core royal family that existed previously) has little to do with modernising state structures, and everything to do with consolidating his own power at the expense of the other branches of the central House of Saud.

This in turn explains why Saudi Arabia has been behaving more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship, and throwing its weight around more outside its own borders, since the accession of King Salman - because under Crown Prince Mohammed, it has become more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship.

The irony is that Saudi Arabia worked (to the extent that is does work; opinions there may vary) precisely because it was an oligarchical authoritarian state rather than a centralised monarchical authoritarian state. So long as power was shared between different power centres, those same power centres were invested in maintaining the state structures.

Whether that's still the case under a centralised authoritarian primogeniture monarchy where power is no longer shared remains an open question - and helps explain why the Crown Prince's 'reforms' are more of a gamble than most people outside of the GCC realise. The al Saud - al ash-Sheikh alliance dates back to the 1740s (the present kingdom is the third Saudi state); that's a lot of history for one young man in his early 30s to overturn so quickly.

That was a genuinely interesting read, thank you. Do you happen to have any links to (preferably free) articles or whatnot you would reccomend on the subject? It's clearly an area I don't know as much about as I would like.

[Petrasylvania]

Well it's nice to know that in addition to being completely and totally incompetent across the board our president is also a goddamned coward. Where's the strong man act he puts on when he's separating children from their families?

Helsinki already proved Donnie is a strongman's bitch.

[The Archregimancy]

That was a genuinely interesting read, thank you. Do you happen to have any links to (preferably free) articles or whatnot you would reccomend on the subject? It's clearly an area I don't know as much about as I would like.

It's very, very difficult to find relatively neutral books on Saudi Arabia.

Try:

Al-Rasheed Madawi
2010 A History of Saudi Arabia (second edition). Cambridge: University Press.

It looks like it's available in part on Google Books (though, as usual, pages will be missing).

The book will only take you up to 2010, but the important point here is understanding the origins of the Saudi state and why the current Crown Prince is such a radical departure. Al-Rasheed is quite good at outlining the early development of the Saudi - Wahhabi alliance.

[Jerzyland]

*Hundred billion dollar arms deals

That too. The whole thing is just stupid. The U.S should have distanced their-selves from the Saudis after 9/11 or even when the bombardment of Yemen began.

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

[Caracasus]

That was a genuinely interesting read, thank you. Do you happen to have any links to (preferably free) articles or whatnot you would reccomend on the subject? It's clearly an area I don't know as much about as I would like.

It's very, very difficult to find relatively neutral books on Saudi Arabia.

Try:

Al-Rasheed Madawi
2010 A History of Saudi Arabia (second edition). Cambridge: University Press.

It looks like it's available in part on Google Books (though, as usual, pages will be missing).

The book will only take you up to 2010, but the important point here is understanding the origins of the Saudi state and why the current Crown Prince is such a radical departure. Al-Rasheed is quite good at outlining the early development of the Saudi - Wahhabi alliance.

Ahh, always a problem getting neutral accounts of most countries, Saudia Arabia would be even harder I guess! Thanks for the reccomend, always good to read up on these things.

[Petrasylvania]

So much for Consequences.

[The South Falls]

That was a genuinely interesting read, thank you. Do you happen to have any links to (preferably free) articles or whatnot you would reccomend on the subject? It's clearly an area I don't know as much about as I would like.

It's very, very difficult to find relatively neutral books on Saudi Arabia.

Try:

Al-Rasheed Madawi
2010 A History of Saudi Arabia (second edition). Cambridge: University Press.

It looks like it's available in part on Google Books (though, as usual, pages will be missing).

The book will only take you up to 2010, but the important point here is understanding the origins of the Saudi state and why the current Crown Prince is such a radical departure. Al-Rasheed is quite good at outlining the early development of the Saudi - Wahhabi alliance.

Thanks. Maybe I'll buy the book when I get around to Amazon.

[Vistulange]

You should go on Wikipedia and edit the article on absolute monarchy.

Hardly.

But there is a need for people outside the Gulf to better understand what's happening in Saudi Arabia rather than dismissing the situation as typical of an absolute monarchy. Saudi Arabia is a deeply unpleasant totalitarian theocratic autocratic state, but it's not a traditional absolute monarchy as most Europeans and North Americans understand that concept.

The Crown Prince's attempts to position himself as a moderniser and reformer have nothing to do with liberalising Saudi politics. They're solely about strengthening the position of Mohammed bin Salman. Making some token moves to liberalise religious restrictions aren't about women's rights or opening cinemas; they're entirely about weakening the power of the Ulema and the Al ash-Sheikh so that they can no longer challenge the power of the al Saud. Similarly, positioning himself as the inheritor of traditional primogeniture descent (as opposed to the rotation of the monarchy between the different subsets of the core royal family that existed previously) has little to do with modernising state structures, and everything to do with consolidating his own power at the expense of the other branches of the central House of Saud.

This in turn explains why Saudi Arabia has been behaving more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship, and throwing its weight around more outside its own borders, since the accession of King Salman - because under Crown Prince Mohammed, it has become more like a traditional Middle Eastern dictatorship.

The irony is that Saudi Arabia worked (to the extent that is does work; opinions there may vary) precisely because it was an oligarchical authoritarian state rather than a centralised monarchical authoritarian state. So long as power was shared between different power centres, those same power centres were invested in maintaining the state structures.

Whether that's still the case under a centralised authoritarian primogeniture monarchy where power is no longer shared remains an open question - and helps explain why the Crown Prince's 'reforms' are more of a gamble than most people outside of the GCC realise. The al Saud - al ash-Sheikh alliance dates back to the 1740s (the present kingdom is the third Saudi state); that's a lot of history for one young man in his early 30s to overturn so quickly.

Thank you for the insight, that was actually quite enlightening.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Well it's nice to know that in addition to being completely and totally incompetent across the board our president is also a goddamned coward. Where's the strong man act he puts on when he's separating children from their families?

Not a surprise considering Trump was a draft dodger.

All bark no bite.

[Publica]

That too. The whole thing is just stupid. The U.S should have distanced their-selves from the Saudis after 9/11 or even when the bombardment of Yemen began.

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

Those cases have been brought three times as of January. As far as I'm aware, the courts have ruled against the plaintiffs on every occasion. I suspect they will continue to do so until people stop prosecuting them.

[Petrasylvania]

Saudis’ Image Makers: A Troll Army and a Twitter Insider

The Saudis have their own troll farm trying to defame Khashoggi, and unlike the Russians they might have had a Twitter mole who also helped out critics.

[Jerzylvania]

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

Those cases have been brought three times as of January. As far as I'm aware, the courts have ruled against the plaintiffs on every occasion. I suspect they will continue to do so until people stop prosecuting them.

That's not surprising at all. Best lawyers et al that money can buy, no doubt. Can you cite any of this, please. I'd appreciate it.

[Uxupox]

That too. The whole thing is just stupid. The U.S should have distanced their-selves from the Saudis after 9/11 or even when the bombardment of Yemen began.

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

How exactly would this work though?

[Greater Cesnica]

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

How exactly would this work though?

Give Jordan nukes fund a coup to put the hashemites in power

[Jerzylvania]

You were right in the first instance. 9/11 was the moment wherein the Saudis should have been dealt with forthright.
The wheels of justice in this matter turn incredibly slowly, but they are finally turning on some aspects of 9/11.

How exactly would this work though?

Literally, the wheels of justice, which are initially square, become rounded after spinning for so very long. Then we proceed.

As for figuratively... boat loads of money are electronically transferred from Saudi accounts. They'll just pump more oil $$$ out of the ground to replace it.

So, can we STOP buying fucking imported oil from shithole terrorist countries now? (it's a rhetorical question guys)

[Petrasylvania]

SA finally admit it.. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... SApp_Other

Saudi Arabia has said the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who disappeared after visiting the country’s consulate in Istanbul on 2 October, is dead.

The news, which cited preliminary findings from an official investigation, was announced on state television on Friday. It said a fight broke out between Khashoggi and people who met him in the consulate, leading to the death of the reporter.

Khashoggi was a US permanent resident who wrote for the Washington Post.

It was also announced that Gen Ahmed al-Asiri, an intelligence official linked to the case, had been dismissed. Eighteen Saudi nationals were said to have been arrested.

More details soon …

It's like the Fucking Saudis were scrambling for a cover story until they saw this.

[Uxupox]

How exactly would this work though?

Literally, the wheels of justice, which are initially square, become rounded after spinning for so very long. Then we proceed.

As for figuratively... boat loads of money are electronically transferred from Saudi accounts. They'll just pump more oil $$$ out of the ground to replace it.

So, can we STOP buying fucking imported oil from shithole terrorist countries now? (it's a rhetorical question guys)

Why would the Saudi's accept an American court ruling? It doesn't make sense.

[Dahon]

So, the hard question: will more follow Khashoggi to wherever his grave is? For all we know, given his body hasn't been produced, Salman might have a morbid fascination with heads. Embalmed, shrunken at the right size, then worn as an amulet to endow him with mystical powers or the sheer transports of orchestrating the coldblooded murder of another human being.

[Publica]

Those cases have been brought three times as of January. As far as I'm aware, the courts have ruled against the plaintiffs on every occasion. I suspect they will continue to do so until people stop prosecuting them.

That's not surprising at all. Best lawyers et al that money can buy, no doubt. Can you cite any of this, please. I'd appreciate it.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/01/ ... 53735.html

Not that it matters anyway of course. SA will simply ignore the internal law the US passed allowing the cases to come to court.

[Jerzylvania]

That's not surprising at all. Best lawyers et al that money can buy, no doubt. Can you cite any of this, please. I'd appreciate it.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/01/ ... 53735.html

Not that it matters anyway of course. SA will simply ignore the internal law the US passed allowing the cases to come to court.

They sure as fuck have ignored every other pursuit of rule of law here. This so called "ally" needs a heavy dose of some real tough love sent their way. Electric cars for EVERYONE!

[Greater Cesnica]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/01/ ... 53735.html

Not that it matters anyway of course. SA will simply ignore the internal law the US passed allowing the cases to come to court.

They sure as fuck have ignored every other pursuit of rule of law here. This so called "ally" needs a heavy dose of some real tough love sent their way. Electric cars for EVERYONE!

Or, just give Jordan some nukes

[Uxupox]

They sure as fuck have ignored every other pursuit of rule of law here. This so called "ally" needs a heavy dose of some real tough love sent their way. Electric cars for EVERYONE!

Or, just give Jordan some nukes

those nukes will probably end up in the hands of hamas.

[Kowani]

They sure as fuck have ignored every other pursuit of rule of law here. This so called "ally" needs a heavy dose of some real tough love sent their way. Electric cars for EVERYONE!

Or, just give Jordan some nukes

12 days war when?