Theocracy Discussion Thread

[United States of Oceania]

Calling current Muslim-majoriry countries "Islamic" is nonsense just like calling the Soviet Union a "Christian" country just because the majority of Soviet people were Christians.

Unlike the Soviet Union, Islamic countries enforce laws that are beyond all doubt Islamic in nature.

Don't think so. Those puppet regimes treat Kuffar (especially Westerners) better than Muslims.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Unlike the Soviet Union, Islamic countries enforce laws that are beyond all doubt Islamic in nature.

Don't think so. Those puppet regimes treat Kuffar (especially Westerners) better than Muslims.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

[United States of Oceania]

Don't think so. Those puppet regimes treat Kuffar (especially Westerners) better than Muslims.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Prove me otherwise. Just name an "Islamic" country and I'll show you I'm right.

[Genivaria]

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Prove me otherwise. Just name an "Islamic" country and I'll show you I'm right.

It's telling when someone demands that someone prove them wrong but neglect to prove themselves right.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

If you had clicked the link, you would have seen the listed nations are ruled by Islamic laws and therefore are Islamic countries.

There's no such thing as a "republic" in Islam and the link is just a list of countries that are called Islamic Republic, but doesn't demonstrate they are ruled by Islamic law.

You clearly didn’t read past the title.

According to the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Islamic Republic is a system based on beliefs in:
[5]
the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no other god except God "), His exclusive sovereignty and right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
the justice of God in creation and legislation;
continuous leadership and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured by recourse to:
continuous leadership of the holy persons, possessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis of the Quran and the Sunnah, upon all of whom be peace;
sciences and arts and the most advanced results of human experience, together with the effort to advance them further;
negation of all forms of oppression, both the infliction of and the submission to it, and of dominance, both its imposition and its acceptance.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

They very much do exist, regardless how much you try to pretend otherwise.

Muslim-majority countries that are astray from the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah are not Islamic.

Ah, the no true Scotsman Islamic fallacy that you and Kubumba keep trotting out when confronted with proof of the existence of Islamic countries.

[Genivaria]

Muslim-majority countries that are astray from the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah are not Islamic.

Ah, the no true Scotsman Islamic fallacy that you and Kubumba keep trotting out when confronted with proof of the existence of Islamic countries.

Kubumba and Amin are the same person.

[United States of Oceania]

There's no such thing as a "republic" in Islam and the link is just a list of countries that are called Islamic Republic, but doesn't demonstrate they are ruled by Islamic law.

You clearly didn’t read past the title.

According to the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Islamic Republic is a system based on beliefs in:
[5]
the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no other god except God "), His exclusive sovereignty and right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
the justice of God in creation and legislation;
continuous leadership and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured by recourse to:
continuous leadership of the holy persons, possessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis of the Quran and the Sunnah, upon all of whom be peace;
sciences and arts and the most advanced results of human experience, together with the effort to advance them further;
negation of all forms of oppression, both the infliction of and the submission to it, and of dominance, both its imposition and its acceptance.

The Constitution of Iran isn't the holy book of Muslims.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

You clearly didn’t read past the title.

The Constitution of Iran isn't the holy book of Muslims.

Yet they derived their constitution and many of their laws from it. A country doesn’t need to be use the Quran itself as it’s law book to be an Islamic country, deriving their laws and governance from it is enough.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Ah, the no true Scotsman Islamic fallacy that you and Kubumba keep trotting out when confronted with proof of the existence of Islamic countries.

Kubumba and Amin are the same person.

I see... I didn’t know that.

[United States of Oceania]

The Constitution of Iran isn't the holy book of Muslims.

Yet they derived their constitution and many of their laws from it. A country doesn’t need to be use the Quran itself as it’s law book to be an Islamic country, deriving their laws and governance from it is enough.

Communism was partially inspired by the Gospels, but that doesn't mean the Soviet Union was a Christian country.

[Genivaria]

Yet they derived their constitution and many of their laws from it. A country doesn’t need to be use the Quran itself as it’s law book to be an Islamic country, deriving their laws and governance from it is enough.

Communism was partially inspired by the Gospels, but that doesn't mean the Soviet Union was a Christian country.

wat

[Valgora]

Yet they derived their constitution and many of their laws from it. A country doesn’t need to be use the Quran itself as it’s law book to be an Islamic country, deriving their laws and governance from it is enough.

Communism was partially inspired by the Gospels, but that doesn't mean the Soviet Union was a Christian country.

Only Christian Communism is really inspired by the Gospels.

Marx was more neutral towards religion, but Marxism-Leninism was pretty anti-religion.

[Saranidia]

You probably wouldn't want your sister/mother/daughter to be a prostitute in any country because you care about her.


Also it does by saying that women have no sanctity or honour and all that is needed to gain access to their body is pay them.
I claims they can be rented even if consensually.

I also wouldn't want my sister to be a cop, a firefighter, a lawyer, or a number of other professions. How is that relevant?
Or does, in your small, boring world, sex only exist for procreation and anything other than that is dishonorable and unsanctimonious?
Oh wait never mind

Why woudn't you want your sister to be a lawyer?
1.It is more universal that people don't want their sisters to be prostitutes. I understand that you woudn't want your sister to be a cop or firefighter because of danger but I would counter by talking about glory, rewards of Allah in some cases etc.

2. No it does not only exist for procreation, it is a gift from God between husband and wife that they can enjoy and this will show their love for each other.

[Jolthig]

Communism was partially inspired by the Gospels, but that doesn't mean the Soviet Union was a Christian country.

Only Christian Communism is really inspired by the Gospels.

Marx was more neutral towards religion, but Marxism-Leninism was pretty anti-religion.

Eh, he called religion the opium of the people.

By his use of opium, he wasn't very fond of religion.

[Saranidia]

Where does the Quran condone acid attacks?
A pre-meditated misogynistic acid attack is hirabah("Making war on Allah and the messenger") and the attacker islamically would have their hand and foot cut off on opposite sides or be executed.

Yeah it’s almost like the koran is a propaganda piece designed to hide the evil reality of Islam.

the Quran is the source of Islam.

[Genivaria]

Only Christian Communism is really inspired by the Gospels.

Marx was more neutral towards religion, but Marxism-Leninism was pretty anti-religion.

Eh, he called religion the opium of the people.

By his use of opium, he wasn't very fond of religion.

A common misreading.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"

Marx was making a structural functionalism argument about religion, and particularly about organized religion.[3][4] Marx believed that religion had certain practical functions in society that were similar to the function of opium in a sick or injured person: it reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on. Marx also saw religion as harmful, as it prevents people from seeing the class structure and oppression around them, thus religion can prevent the necessary revolution.

[Right wing humour squad]

Yeah it’s almost like the koran is a propaganda piece designed to hide the evil reality of Islam.

the Quran is the source of Islam.

Evil is the source of Islam.
The Koran is just a propaganda piece.

[Saranidia]

the Quran is the source of Islam.

Evil is the source of Islam.
The Koran is just a propaganda piece.

That makes no sense.
maybe learn what Islam is.

I for one follow the Quran not "evil".
besides name a country where that type of attack is legal.

[Saranidia]

I detest theocracy in theory and in practise, but the prohibition on interest is something I've been warming to ever since the bailouts, and I realised how much risk (and more so, fragility) the government-backed "financial industry" externalizes onto the people.

Mohammed was a merchant before he entered the government business, and a free market fanatic even by modern American standards ("prices rise and fall in accordance with the will of God"), but he drew the line at state-subsidised usury.

If you're an entrepreneur in need of capital, find investors willing to take shares, was his system. If you can't find investors, your business probably sucks. Yes, Arabia and East Africa were doing the whole share-market thing a millennium before the West.

If you have capital to invest, find a business to take a share in (risks as well as rewards). If you're not willing to wear some of the risks, you don't deserve the rewards.

Either way, don't come howling to the government asking for a taxpayer-funded service, be it a bailout after a popular loss of confidence, or state-violence-backed enforcement on a compound-interest scam gone wrong.

Interest-bearing financial instruments make money and pay taxes in the short term, but the medium-term costs in enforcement costs, economic instability and political instability are not worth it (similiar to gambling and pyramid selling schemes). The only reason usury was legalised in early modern Europe (and its imitators since) is a combination of lack of foresight with massive political corruption.

My apologies for the slightly late reply, but I haven't checked the forums in a couple days.

By banning interest, we're not talking about the government, the government barely charges it. We're talking about banning banks from charging interests on loans. Not just to businesses, which , as you say, can make capital in other ways, but also to people. So no more mortgages. No more loans for hospital bills. It gets worse from there. You are welcome to argue that interest should be banned, but everyone who wants to buy a house isn't going to than you for it.

Banning interest would lead to different kinds of people having wealth and power, besides Gaddafi gurraunteed everyone the right to own a home.

[The Free Joy State]

Only Christian Communism is really inspired by the Gospels.

Marx was more neutral towards religion, but Marxism-Leninism was pretty anti-religion.

Eh, he called religion the opium of the people.

By his use of opium, he wasn't very fond of religion.

Marx saw religion as both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because, like opium it, "reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on". Potentially harmful because "it prevents people from seeing the class structure and oppression around them, thus religion can prevent the necessary revolution".

He once said "all criticism begins with criticism of religion", and may not have been fond of organised religion, but he seems to have seen a place for personal spirituality (once saying, in Wages of Labour, ""To develop in greater spiritual freedom, a people must break their bondage to their bodily needs—they must cease to be the slaves of the body. They must, above all, have time at their disposal for spiritual creative activity and spiritual enjoyment.")

This, by the way, is the full "opium of the people quote from Marx' Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right:

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

[Jolthig]

Eh, he called religion the opium of the people.

By his use of opium, he wasn't very fond of religion.

A common misreading.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"

Marx was making a structural functionalism argument about religion, and particularly about organized religion.[3][4] Marx believed that religion had certain practical functions in society that were similar to the function of opium in a sick or injured person: it reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on. Marx also saw religion as harmful, as it prevents people from seeing the class structure and oppression around them, thus religion can prevent the necessary revolution.

Eh, he called religion the opium of the people.

By his use of opium, he wasn't very fond of religion.

Marx saw religion as both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because, like opium it, "reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on". Potentially harmful because "it prevents people from seeing the class structure and oppression around them, thus religion can prevent the necessary revolution".

He once said "all criticism begins with criticism of religion", and may not have been fond of organised religion, but he seems to have seen a place for personal spirituality.

This, by the way, is the full "opium of the people quote from Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right:

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Interesting references, but either way, he seemed mostly opposed to religion; though I will admit later communists after Lenin took this saying to the extreme.

[Jolthig]

Perhaps I should have specified in my first comment to Genivania that yeah, opium, has pleasurable effects but isn't good for you and Marx used this analogy to describe religion.

Still, he mostly opposed it according to the references both of you provided.

[USS Monitor]

the Quran is the source of Islam.

Evil is the source of Islam.

*** 1 day ban for trolling ***

[Saranidia]

Evil is the source of Islam.

*** 1 day ban for trolling ***

thanks