Theocracy Discussion Thread

[Elenir]

Then, we need to avoid establishing a bad one in the first place.

Let's be honest, right now, a theocracy has no use.

Agreed.

But I believe in the future, when the earth's resources are low and we are in the need of a great cultural change, religion will play a major role in that.
Like eco-religion, a weird concept.

Nah. When the Earth’s resources get low, either we colonize space, learn how to recycle, cut back production, or invent synthetic foodstuffs, or we’re screwed. Any religion that currently exists on Earth will be utterly useless in helping a demoralized, terrified people against the vast, empty, darkness of space.

I mean, but how exactly are you going to change the consumist culture that we have thrived on?
Yeah, you could cut back production, but that would lead to a crisis if the people are used to living in excess.

[Kowani]

Agreed.

Nah. When the Earth’s resources get low, either we colonize space, learn how to recycle, cut back production, or invent synthetic foodstuffs, or we’re screwed. Any religion that currently exists on Earth will be utterly useless in helping a demoralized, terrified people against the vast, empty, darkness of space.

I mean, but how exactly are you going to changes the consumist culture that we have thrived on?
Yeah, you could cut back production, but that would lead to a crisis if the people are used to living in excess.

I mean, the crisis of running out of things to build stuff with would wake a lot of people up. It’s easy to ignore a problem until it starts happening to you. Unfortunately, our lawmakers don’t seem to realize that.

[Kubumba Tribe]

We don't deserve respect?

Not when you're trying to force us all to abide by your particular invisible sky daddy's rules.

Well I don't believe in a sky daddy so you're ok.
But even if I did, I'd still deserve respect.

[The Batorys]

What do you mean by "Moorish folks"?

Followers of that heresy indigenous to the Saracen peninsula.

Stop obfuscating.

[The Batorys]

I was speaking with one of my father's friends who is quite a fundamentalist Christian and pretty hardline conservative in general, when he once made an excellent point. He said, the church should never become associated with the state, nor even receive money from the state, because that means that the church must answer to the state. Thus, when a government turns away from christian values, a church's ability to exercise their values is compromised. In which case, a person's religion would no longer be dictated by its original scripture, but instead, at least in part, the interests of the state. For example, the Catholic Church of Italy was told that their adoption agency must serve same sex adopters if they want to continue to receive government funding. Ultimately, if you turn the state religious, you turn your religion over to the state. Now do you really want that to happen?

Of course, I realize that this argument will probably be most effective against anti-government Christians who are probably not that theocratic to begin with, and more authoritarian folks may simply go "Yeah, so? The state is grate, lmao."A word of advice, the state never stays "great" for long, for anybody.

I've also made this point at times. Politics is by its very nature a very dirty enterprise, and always has been.

If you want your religion to stay pure and uncorrupted, you don't want politics touching it.

[The Batorys]

I was speaking with one of my father's friends who is quite a fundamentalist Christian and pretty hardline conservative in general, when he once made an excellent point. He said, the church should never become associated with the state, nor even receive money from the state, because that means that the church must answer to the state. Thus, when a government turns away from christian values, a church's ability to exercise their values is compromised. In which case, a person's religion would no longer be dictated by its original scripture, but instead, at least in part, the interests of the state. For example, the Catholic Church of Italy was told that their adoption agency must serve same sex adopters if they want to continue to receive government funding. Ultimately, if you turn the state religious, you turn your religion over to the state. Now do you really want that to happen?

Of course, I realize that this argument will probably be most effective against anti-government Christians who are probably not that theocratic to begin with, and more authoritarian folks may simply go "Yeah, so? The state is grate, lmao."A word of advice, the state never stays "great" for long, for anybody.

That's assuming that the religion is at the mercy of the state. I want it to be the other way around.

It doesn't historically work that way. Power corrupts and all that. Politics ensnares the religious leaders and all too soon they begin making decisions for political rather than spiritual reasons.

[The Batorys]

Then why speak? If you don't have anything rational or constructive to say, don't say anything at all.

Can we please apply that to the anti-theocrats who pop in to say we're bad and then leave, too?

Theocrats are inherently hypocritical.

As much as you seek to enshrine your own religious views into law, I'm sure you would chafe under a government beholden to mine.

[The Batorys]

From what I've seen, most anti-theocrats in this thread have provided some form of reasoned argument.

sashaniye iran didn't he literally included a post saying "theocracy sucks" with no other arguments.

Well that's just a fact. Historically, theocracy usually does suck.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

That's assuming that the religion is at the mercy of the state. I want it to be the other way around.

It doesn't historically work that way. Power corrupts and all that. Politics ensnares the religious leaders and all too soon they begin making decisions for political rather than spiritual reasons.

I think history has shown that even the purest of religions can and will be corrupted by hunger for power or wealth all too f*cking crystal clear.

[Minzerland II]

I was speaking with one of my father's friends who is quite a fundamentalist Christian and pretty hardline conservative in general, when he once made an excellent point. He said, the church should never become associated with the state, nor even receive money from the state, because that means that the church must answer to the state. Thus, when a government turns away from christian values, a church's ability to exercise their values is compromised. In which case, a person's religion would no longer be dictated by its original scripture, but instead, at least in part, the interests of the state. For example, the Catholic Church of Italy was told that their adoption agency must serve same sex adopters if they want to continue to receive government funding. Ultimately, if you turn the state religious, you turn your religion over to the state. Now do you really want that to happen?

Of course, I realize that this argument will probably be most effective against anti-government Christians who are probably not that theocratic to begin with, and more authoritarian folks may simply go "Yeah, so? The state is grate, lmao."A word of advice, the state never stays "great" for long, for anybody.

I've also made this point at times. Politics is by its very nature a very dirty enterprise, and always has been.

If you want your religion to stay pure and uncorrupted, you don't want politics touching it.

Yet staying out of politics yields the same results. People just cannot help but having their hands on everything, so it becomes necessary for religious people to politicise.

[The Batorys]

2: You're assuming every cop is corrupt.

How much experience do you have in dealing with the police, exactly?

[The Batorys]

It's easy to make jokes about the horseshit Amin spews.

*shrugs* The Westboro Baptist Church is worse.

Sure, but that sentence is almost always true.

"Better than the Westboro Baptist Church" is a very low standard, lol.

[The Batorys]

Amin, have you ever heard of a joke? Of course you don't smoke, you're too pious, apparently.

I know you were joking. Also, it don't take that much piety to not smoke.

The best Muslims smoke weed everyday.

Or hash, rather.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

*shrugs* The Westboro Baptist Church is worse.

Sure, but that sentence is almost always true.

"Better than the Westboro Baptist Church" is a very low standard, lol.

I can't think of anything lower than the WBC, really.

They're chilling in that cesspool right alongside ISIS.

[The Batorys]

I wanted to make a hashish joke really badly, but I'll refrain from it...

I actually used to be a Hashashin lol. That was my sect.

Definitely the sect with the best name.

[The Batorys]

I actually used to be a Hashashin lol. That was my sect.

They’re still real? Could you actually tg me on that, I’m writing a story we’re the main character is inspired by them, it’d be awesome to hear someone explain it, especially from a modern perspective

Yep, they've never stopped existing.

[The Batorys]

In which case the theocracy should be reformed.

Yes, a Reformation perhaps.

But I thought you did not want an Islamic Reformation?

The Protestant Reformation at the time was not really a liberalizing influence. If anything, it encouraged far more literal fundamentalism.

The problem is that the Wahhabis actually pretty much are the Islamic Reformation.

[Publica]

Sure, but that sentence is almost always true.

"Better than the Westboro Baptist Church" is a very low standard, lol.

I can't think of anything lower than the WBC, really.

They're chilling in that cesspool right alongside ISIS.

I can. Easily. I disagree with pretty much everything they stand for, but they protest peacefully.

They’re still real? Could you actually tg me on that, I’m writing a story we’re the main character is inspired by them, it’d be awesome to hear someone explain it, especially from a modern perspective

Yep, they've never stopped existing.

I suspect IB is talking about the Order of Assassins that went extinct in the 13th century. The one Assassin's Creed is based on?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I can't think of anything lower than the WBC, really.

They're chilling in that cesspool right alongside ISIS.

I can. Easily. I disagree with pretty much everything they stand for, but they protest peacefully.

The fact that they protest peacefully, despite their message of unbridled hatred, is their only moderate aspect (and arguably the one aspect that legally saves them from violent retaliation).

They most likely know that if they engage in violence, then they will be met by a response of the same kind.

[Publica]

I can. Easily. I disagree with pretty much everything they stand for, but they protest peacefully.

The fact that they protest peacefully, despite their message of unbridled hatred, is their only moderate aspect (and arguably the one aspect that legally saves them from violent retaliation).

They most likely know that if they engage in violence, then they will be met by a response of the same kind.

Maybe so, but that still makes them better than anyone who hurts other people for their beliefs.

[The Batorys]

I agree with you. the American democracy is subject to veto based on the US constitution just like Iranian democracy is subject to the veto of the Quran- Their constitution.

Also subject to the Veto of the US tomahawk

And the Tu-95.

[The Batorys]

*lights cigarette*
So how many religious courts are we gonna need?

Thousands.

Also why not a joint?

[Kowani]

Yes, a Reformation perhaps.

But I thought you did not want an Islamic Reformation?

The Protestant Reformation at the time was not really a liberalizing influence. If anything, it encouraged far more literal fundamentalism.

The problem is that the Wahhabis actually pretty much are the Islamic Reformation.

Well.. not entirely. It brought more religious diversity, and in certain areas, brought about actual tolerance. However, you are right in saying that it also increased religious fundamentalism.

[The Batorys]

How many sects of Islam are we counting? Which denominations of Christianity? Judaism? Buddhism?

In terms of Al-Islam, no sects, just the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah (last part would probs be difficult because there's Sunni and Shi'a aHadith).

There are literally dozens of sects of Islam.

[The Batorys]

We’ve got a genocide going in one

do you mean the Myanmar genocide?

Burma*