Theocracy Discussion Thread

[Elenir]

Native americans

Need a big pot of sauce on that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus
these guys especifically
http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-677.html
its in spanish, but that's why google translate exists.

[Tarsonis]

Need a big pot of sauce on that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus
these guys especifically
http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-677.html
its in spanish, but that's why google translate exists.

Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_las_Casas

[Internationalist Bastard]

Need a big pot of sauce on that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus
these guys especifically
http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-677.html
its in spanish, but that's why google translate exists.

That article literally mentions they excluded people descended from Jews and Muslims
That’s a great bastion of tolerance

[Elenir]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus
these guys especifically
http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-677.html
its in spanish, but that's why google translate exists.

That article literally mentions they excluded people descended from Jews and Muslims
That’s a great bastion of tolerance

I mean, first of all I never mentioned they were a bastion of tolerance for those people.

Second of all, I think you may be ignoring the whole "Historical Context" in this situation, the reconquista had just ended in Spain and the resentment againt those groups was still high and lastly, well, its the 16th century, this was pretty "Tolerant" for that time. Like, what do you have to have to be a "great bastion of tolerance", especially in an age like the middle ages.

[Kowani]

That article literally mentions they excluded people descended from Jews and Muslims
That’s a great bastion of tolerance

I mean, first of all I never mentioned they were a bastion of tolerance for those people.

Second of all, I think you may be ignoring the whole "Historical Context" in this situation, the reconquista had just ended in Spain and the resentment againt those groups was still high and lastly, well, its the 16th century, this was pretty "Tolerant" for that time. Like, what do you have to have to be a "great bastion of tolerance", especially in an age like the middle ages.

Hey...didn’t they break the treaty of Santa Fe? Y’know, the one they signed guaranteeing the Muslims the ability to practice their religion, maintain their culture and write things in Arabic?

Besides, when the frickin’ Pope is calling you “Most Catholic Kings”, you don’t get to claim any prizes for diversity or tolerance.

[Internationalist Bastard]

That article literally mentions they excluded people descended from Jews and Muslims
That’s a great bastion of tolerance

I mean, first of all I never mentioned they were a bastion of tolerance for those people.

Second of all, I think you may be ignoring the whole "Historical Context" in this situation, the reconquista had just ended in Spain and the resentment againt those groups was still high and lastly, well, its the 16th century, this was pretty "Tolerant" for that time. Like, what do you have to have to be a "great bastion of tolerance", especially in an age like the middle ages.

Generally I don’t put at theocracies or the Middle Ages as examples of tolerance period

[Elenir]

Well, I provided you proof that the Catholics did in fact defend Indians.
So yeah, idk why you guys are trying to convert this into a discussion if the catholic church in the middle age was tolerant or not, because it wasn't, no one was.

Ofcourse the past sucks under our standars.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Well, I provided you proof that the Catholics did in fact defend Indians.
So yeah, idk why you guys are trying to convert this into a discussion if the catholic church in the middle age was tolerant or not, because it wasn't, no one was.

Ofcourse the past sucks under our standars.

Because you have yet to explain your model beyond the example of the Middle Ages, and how horrible of a time it was

[Elenir]

Well, I provided you proof that the Catholics did in fact defend Indians.
So yeah, idk why you guys are trying to convert this into a discussion if the catholic church in the middle age was tolerant or not, because it wasn't, no one was.

Ofcourse the past sucks under our standars.

Because you have yet to explain your model beyond the example of the Middle Ages, and how horrible of a time it was

This is unrelated to whatever model i am supposed to present. I'm just saying that the church did in fact defend some people during the middle ages+a lil bit of the future.

[Kowani]

Well, I provided you proof that the Catholics did in fact defend Indians.
So yeah, idk why you guys are trying to convert this into a discussion if the catholic church in the middle age was tolerant or not, because it wasn't, no one was.

Ofcourse the past sucks under our standars.

Yes, you accomplished the original goal.
Unfortunately for you, that was, quite literally, 1 sect. And it’s not like they had the greatest amount of success either, Pope’s Rebellion did far more then the Jesuits did at trying to get the encomienda system rolled back.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Because you have yet to explain your model beyond the example of the Middle Ages, and how horrible of a time it was

This is unrelated to whatever model i am supposed to present. I'm just saying that the church did in fact defend some people during the middle ages+a lil bit of the future.

Ok
Now explain, please, how you believe theocracy would work?

[Elenir]

Well, I provided you proof that the Catholics did in fact defend Indians.
So yeah, idk why you guys are trying to convert this into a discussion if the catholic church in the middle age was tolerant or not, because it wasn't, no one was.

Ofcourse the past sucks under our standars.

Yes, you accomplished the original goal.
Unfortunately for you, that was, quite literally, 1 sect. And it’s not like they had the greatest amount of success either, Pope’s Rebellion did far more then the Jesuits did at trying to get the encomienda system rolled back.

"No Success"
One of the dominant sects in modern day latin america, used to own most of the land and were so influential that once the king was overthrown they(The new dynasty) tried to shut them down.

[Elenir]

This is unrelated to whatever model i am supposed to present. I'm just saying that the church did in fact defend some people during the middle ages+a lil bit of the future.

Ok
Now explain, please, how you believe theocracy would work?

Well, you just need to have a good holy book, that's it. Kinda like law. If the book says yes to something do that and if the book says no to something then don't. Of course, you could say it could be corrupted, but I think in the current day and age that's harder than in the past, since you know, people in the past(for example) weren't capable of reading the bible thanks to the Latin only nature that it had(and that's the same thing that lead towards the protestant reformation). Now a days people can have an easy simply buy the book in any lenguage they want.

[Luziyca]

Honestly, I wouldn't really accept a theocracy, since while they may be cool looking, they're not generally great to those not following their preferred faith™, or their preferred interpretation of said faith™. Besides, I am more used to more secular forms of government.

[Kowani]

Yes, you accomplished the original goal.
Unfortunately for you, that was, quite literally, 1 sect. And it’s not like they had the greatest amount of success either, Pope’s Rebellion did far more then the Jesuits did at trying to get the encomienda system rolled back.

"No Success"
One of the dominant sects in modern day latin america, used to own most of the land and were so influential that once the king was overthrown they tried to shut them down.

I mean, the arrival of African slaves and Pope’s Rebellion were the real factors that ended the already terrible treatment of Amerindians...Yeah, spreading their religion is great and all, but they only succeeded in their mission because of factors completely beyond their control.


I wasn’t aware that being the most common belief in a region of chaos was an accomplishment. The poor and desperate will naturally look to a good afterlife or the idea of a merciful god to compensate them. Besides, that only came about because of the wiping out of Amerindian religions. (Side note, Aztec belief really needed to go the way of the dinosaurs)

[Kowani]

Ok
Now explain, please, how you believe theocracy would work?

Well, you just need to have a good holy book, that's it. Kinda like law. If the book says yes to something do that and if the book says no to something then don't. Of course, you could say it could be corrupted, but I think in the current day and age that's harder than in the past, since you know, people in the past(for example) weren't capable of reading the bible thanks to the Latin only nature that it had(and that's the same thing that lead towards the protestant reformation). Now a days people can have an easy simply buy the book in any lenguage they want.

And thus, all heretics were burned to death by the God-Emperor’s Holy Inquisition...

[Elenir]

"No Success"
One of the dominant sects in modern day latin america, used to own most of the land and were so influential that once the king was overthrown they tried to shut them down.

I mean, the arrival of African slaves and Pope’s Rebellion were the real factors that ended the already terrible treatment of Amerindians...Yeah, spreading their religion is great and all, but they only succeeded in their mission because of factors completely beyond their control.


I wasn’t aware that being the most common belief in a region of chaos was an accomplishment. The poor and desperate will naturally look to a good afterlife or the idea of a merciful god to compensate them. Besides, that only came about because of the wiping out of Amerindian religions. (Side note, Aztec belief really needed to go the way of the dinosaurs)

"Region of chaos"
Yeah okay, no offense, but I think you don't understand the reality of south america. Venezuela might in trouble, yes, but countries like Chile for example are perfectly stable, and yes, most countries have a problem with drugs and the such, but that's a global issue. Apart from that, in order to be a member of that sect guess what you need, money. How are you going to do charity if you are piss poor.

Bonus track:Also, religion has little to no ties to desesperation. do you think, for example, that Jewish bankers are desperate... of course they aren't

[Elenir]

Well, you just need to have a good holy book, that's it. Kinda like law. If the book says yes to something do that and if the book says no to something then don't. Of course, you could say it could be corrupted, but I think in the current day and age that's harder than in the past, since you know, people in the past(for example) weren't capable of reading the bible thanks to the Latin only nature that it had(and that's the same thing that lead towards the protestant reformation). Now a days people can have an easy simply buy the book in any lenguage they want.

And thus, all heretics were burned to death by the God-Emperor’s Holy Inquisition...

I mean, that's the reason why you need to choose a good religion to follow, the imperial cult is an example of what not to follow.

[Kowani]

I mean, the arrival of African slaves and Pope’s Rebellion were the real factors that ended the already terrible treatment of Amerindians...Yeah, spreading their religion is great and all, but they only succeeded in their mission because of factors completely beyond their control.


I wasn’t aware that being the most common belief in a region of chaos was an accomplishment. The poor and desperate will naturally look to a good afterlife or the idea of a merciful god to compensate them. Besides, that only came about because of the wiping out of Amerindian religions. (Side note, Aztec belief really needed to go the way of the dinosaurs)

"Region of chaos"
Yeah okay, no offense, but I think you don't understand the reality of south america. Venezuela might in trouble, yes, but countries like Chile for example are perfectly stable, and yes, most countries have a problem with drugs and the such, but that's a global issue. Apart from that, in order to be a member of that sect guess what you need, money. How are you going to do charity if you are piss poor.

Have you seen the state of Brazil? And considering SA produces a shitton of drugs, I think just calling it a global issue kinda undercuts how badly it affects people there, especially if we count Colombia’s drug Barons. (Not adding in Mexico because that’s North America, but just reminding you that cartels exist.), Paraguay has an ongoing insurgency that nobody seems to care about because it’s frickin’ Paraguay.

[Elenir]

"Region of chaos"
Yeah okay, no offense, but I think you don't understand the reality of south america. Venezuela might in trouble, yes, but countries like Chile for example are perfectly stable, and yes, most countries have a problem with drugs and the such, but that's a global issue. Apart from that, in order to be a member of that sect guess what you need, money. How are you going to do charity if you are piss poor.

Have you seen the state of Brazil? And considering SA produces a shitton of drugs, I think just calling it a global issue kinda undercuts how badly it affects people there, especially if we count Colombia’s drug Barons. (Not adding in Mexico because that’s North America, but just reminding you that cartels exist.), Paraguay has an ongoing insurgency that nobody seems to care about because it’s frickin’ Paraguay.

Honestly yeah, no one cares about paraguay(and maybe, just maybe, the insurection is just 500 people). Well yeah, SA produces a lot of drugs, but guess who are the idiots that consume them... what's worst, consuming the drugs or making them?

and well, brazil is brazil.

[Kowani]

And thus, all heretics were burned to death by the God-Emperor’s Holy Inquisition...

I mean, that's the reason why you need to choose a good religion to follow, the imperial cult is an example of what not to follow.

I mean, the number of people who manage to leave their religion is insanely low...
Possibly, could it be that an established religion is insanely hard to get rid of without legal suppression? And even more importantly, that children care little for whether a religion is “right” or not, they tend to absorb what they’re taught. As such, an established bad religion is nearly impossible to get rid of while still respecting freedom of belief.

[Elenir]

I mean, that's the reason why you need to choose a good religion to follow, the imperial cult is an example of what not to follow.

I mean, the number of people who manage to leave their religion is insanely low...
Possibly, could it be that an established religion is insanely hard to get rid of without legal suppression? And even more importantly, that children care little for whether a religion is “right” or not, they tend to absorb what they’re taught. As such, an established bad religion is nearly impossible to get rid of while still respecting freedom of belief.

Then, we need to avoid establishing a bad one in the first place.

Let's be honest, right now, a theocracy has no use. But I believe in the future, when the earth's resources are low and we are in the need of a great cultural change, religion will play a major role in that.
Like eco-religion, a weird concept.

[The Batorys]

Be respectful.

You know what I think is really disrespectful? Forcing other people to abide by your religion's laws. That's the really disrespectful thing.

I agree.

[Kowani]

I mean, the number of people who manage to leave their religion is insanely low...
Possibly, could it be that an established religion is insanely hard to get rid of without legal suppression? And even more importantly, that children care little for whether a religion is “right” or not, they tend to absorb what they’re taught. As such, an established bad religion is nearly impossible to get rid of while still respecting freedom of belief.

Then, we need to avoid establishing a bad one in the first place.

Let's be honest, right now, a theocracy has no use.

Agreed.

But I believe in the future, when the earth's resources are low and we are in the need of a great cultural change, religion will play a major role in that.
Like eco-religion, a weird concept.

Nah. When the Earth’s resources get low, either we colonize space, learn how to recycle, cut back production, or invent synthetic foodstuffs, or we’re screwed. Any religion that currently exists on Earth will be utterly useless in helping a demoralized, terrified people against the vast, empty, darkness of space.

[The Batorys]

When your ideology is by definition impolite, I don't see why you deserve better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We don't deserve respect?

Not when you're trying to force us all to abide by your particular invisible sky daddy's rules.