Irish Blasphemy Referendum 2018

[Kubumba Tribe]

Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?

Better question: Who cares if it is?

Theocrats and people who want to live by their religion.
And no, that's not a better question.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Why am I so big on the Blaine Amendment, blasphemy laws, and the subsidization of religion? -because today it's for your church. Tomorrow, it's for Islam.

[Ifreann]

Yes

Yes it is.

What's the punishment?

There isn't one. It's not a crime that the Church punishes, it's a sin that the Church teaches is wrong and will land one in Hell.

[Hatterleigh]

Blasphemy laws are incompatible with a free and democratic society. Even though the law is not actively enforced, striking it from the Constitution is still a powerful statement that shows commitment to secular democracy.

Democracy is a false god, saying something is incompatible with democracy proves nothing.

[Hatterleigh]

Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?

Uhh yeah kinda

[Kubumba Tribe]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

[Ifreann]

Yeah, no. Democracy's entire purpose is to put the will of the people who are being ruled into action. The people who originally write a constitution will, eventually, be dead, and thus not "the people" in question that the democracy is concerned with anymore. If a constitution fails to reflect the values and desires of the people whose lives it is directly effecting, then that's not democracy—that's just being ruled over by your ancestors.

You must not care about the American Constitution then, or any. Have fun with Demagogues, mob rule, instability, lack of rule of law, and anarchy.

What I think you're not getting is that the Constitution of Ireland can only be amended by referendum. That is, by public vote. No one is forcing a change on us that we do not want. We are being asked if we want to change. And there's no fiddly rules or complicated systems to navigate. It's just a straight Yes/No vote, most votes wins.

Rebutted earlier.

Not really. The provision that the Constitution can be amended by referendum was in the Constitution when it was adopted by plebiscite.

[Ifreann]

Not really. The provision that the Constitution can be amended by referendum was in the Constitution when it was adopted by plebiscite.

Yes, but what about the Religious nature?

What about it?

[Iridencia]

Yeah, no. Democracy's entire purpose is to put the will of the people who are being ruled into action. The people who originally write a constitution will, eventually, be dead, and thus not "the people" in question that the democracy is concerned with anymore. If a constitution fails to reflect the values and desires of the people whose lives it is directly effecting, then that's not democracy—that's just being ruled over by your ancestors.

You must not care about the American Constitution then, or any. Have fun with Demagogues, mob rule, instability, lack of rule of law, and anarchy.

The American Constitution and its supplementary documents written by the same people expressly state that they can and should be altered in order to reflect the needs and values of future Americans.

"Article V (Article 5 - Mode of Amendment)
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

Try actually reading the stuff you pretend to care about.

[US-SSR]

Blasphemy illegal in Ireland? How are there any Irish outside of jail?

[Ifreann]

Blasphemy illegal in Ireland? How are there any Irish outside of jail?

We don't really enforce the law.

Also there's only a fine.

[Ifreann]

What about it?

Was it designed to be allowed to Secular?

If so, I have no issue, I much prefer secularism anyway, more free to others to me.

It was designed to be amended as the people wished.

I'm not in favor of the Irish Constitution, just the concept of Constitutionalism, and am concerned that this undermines that concept and will cause chaos and create the illusion of lack of rule of law, which means fascists, communists, radicals, etc. can amend it to their own liking because the public wants it.

We've amended our Constitution quite a few times since adopting it. We haven't descended into chaos yet.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Why am I so big on the Blaine Amendment, blasphemy laws, and the subsidization of religion? -because today it's for your church. Tomorrow, it's for Islam.

I was giving an example about why subsidies, blasphemy law, and state support or endorsement of religion is a bad thing. If the state has the power to fund X religion you like, it has the power to fund Y religion you do not like.

My rant about the Blaine Amendment being the best thing ever goes back to the concept that 1) forced religion or state subsidization of is a Satanic violation of Free Will, and 2) a government that bankrolls your religion might one day bankroll unbelievers.

[Genivaria]

Ireland has already demonstrated its total commitment to apostasy and, metaphorically speaking, the Druids are back in control now that sexual decadence, sexual immorality, and the slaughter of human fetuses are universally sactioned. Ireland will not be coming back to any sort of morally upright living in my lifetime, if ever. The Catholic Church has no power there.

That said, this is something that I completely and totally applaud. Like government subsidization of religion and tax dollars going to churches, compulsory religion is Satanic. No blasphemy law should exist, as it is a suppression of the Free Will that God intended for all men to exercise in choosing to find Him. No tax money should go to any religion, as it is an endorsement of and gateway for the state to subjugate the Church and her autonomy. It is also a gateway to

I commend Ireland for finally ending the abomination that is the blasphemy law and hope to see a world where blasphemy laws do not exist. I also hope for an America when the Blaine Amendment is in the federal Constitution or, at the least, the Supreme Court finally respects states' rights and lets states prevent the government from giving tax money to a given church.

God will take care of those blaspheming Him; they will rot in Hell where they belong.

Why am I so big on the Blaine Amendment, blasphemy laws, and the subsidization of religion? -because today it's for your church. Tomorrow, it's for Islam.

This honestly sounds like a Fred Phelps rant.
It's a crock of insane shit, but at least its funny.

[Genivaria]

Better question: Who cares if it is?

Theocrats and people who want to live by their religion.
And no, that's not a better question.

So you living by your religion requires you to have an authoritarian and theocratic religion that forces others to live by your religion?
That is one insecure religion you have there.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Better question: Who cares if it is?

Theocrats and people who want to live by their religion.
And no, that's not a better question.

People who want to live by their religion can already do so in their own homes and places of worship, there’s no need for their religious values to be enforced through the will of the government.

[Iridencia]

The American Constitution and its supplementary documents written by the same people expressly state that they can and should be altered in order to reflect the needs and values of future Americans.

"Article V (Article 5 - Mode of Amendment)
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

Try actually reading the stuff you pretend to care about.

Strawman/Ad Hominem.

Hardly.

I am aware of that article, and favor it.

You favor an article in the American Constitution which expressly states that the rules of constitution can and should be changed in order to reflect the desires of the current people, yet you deride those who support the ability to change the rules of the constitution in order to reflect the desires of the current people as not respecting the American Constitution ("or any!!") and as supporting "mob rule and anarchy."

So I can only assume you are either hold starkly contradicting views and compartmentalize that fact better than a Volkswagon, or you're not being entirely truthful.

You were missing my point but I feel you aren't arguing anymore in good faith so good day to you sir.

No, what I did was expose the catch-22 moon logic your point was founded on and instead of facing it you'd rather snatch up your toys and run away while pretending you've got the moral high ground. It's not very convincing or attractive.

[New haven america]

If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

No, bad.

Go sit in the corner and think about what you've said.

[Ifreann]

It was designed to be amended as the people wished.


We've amended our Constitution quite a few times since adopting it. We haven't descended into chaos yet.

1: Then amend away!

2:
Yes but we have a long history and were founded on the basis of Democracy. America is different.

Read Diplomacy by Kissinger, even if you hate the man and think he's an awful person, war criminal, and made huge mistakes in the Middle East, he hits this pretty spot on and goes into surprising detail, and some stuff regarding Foreign Policy applies to Domestics as well, so try taking that into account too.

That is why I am very cautious.

I am not talking about America. I am talking about Ireland. By "we" I mean the people of Ireland, because I am Irish.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Theocrats and people who want to live by their religion.
And no, that's not a better question.

So you living by your religion requires you to have an authoritarian and theocratic religion

Authoritaian, no. Theocratic, yes.

that forces others to live by your religion?

Enforced, not forced. And only if they adhere to a religion. Note how I say "a" and not "my".

[Kubumba Tribe]

If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

No, bad.

Go sit in the corner and think about what you've said.

I'd rather let myself be known.

[Ifreann]

I am not talking about America. I am talking about Ireland. By "we" I mean the people of Ireland, because I am Irish.

Ah, well, were any as dramatic as this then?

Well let's see. The last referendum we legalised abortion. The one before that we legalised gay marriage. So...yeah. Much more dramatic than this, actually.

[Genivaria]

So you living by your religion requires you to have an authoritarian and theocratic religion

Authoritaian, no. Theocratic, yes.

that forces others to live by your religion?

Enforced, not forced. And only if they adhere to a religion. Note how I say "a" and not "my".

Oh no you are very authoritarian, by fucking definition.

And only if they adhere to a religion.

Something that you refuse to understand is that a person's beliefs are not actually defined but some simplistic label that allows you to put them into boxes, not even religious beliefs.
A person can call themselves a Christian and believe anything about the trinity or who gets into heaven and by what standards and what OT laws are rendered invalid by Christ and what still are enforced.

Your idea of using the law and government to punish people for the most trivial of reasons AND to have different sets of laws for different people is both immoral and idiotic.

Either the law applies to all or none.

[Oil exporting People]

Given how Ireland is nowadays, I have no doubt they will vote to remove Blasphemy from their Constitution. As usual, Ulster is the only redeemable entity in the British isles.

[Geneviev]

If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

No, bad.

Go sit in the corner and think about what you've said.

That is how things would work best in general.