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Irish Blasphemy Referendum 2018

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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Irish Blasphemy Referendum 2018

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:00 pm

Sauce

DUBLIN — For eight decades, the blasphemous of Ireland have risked the wrath not just of their maker and of the Roman Catholic Church, but of the government itself.

“The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law,” says Article 40 of the Irish Constitution.

But the government may soon step out of the religious enforcement business. In October, Irish citizens will vote in a referendum on whether the blasphemy clause should be stripped from the Constitution.

Government officials are also leaning toward giving voters a chance to jettison another artifact of old Ireland: a provision of the 1937 Constitution suggesting that a woman’s place is in the home.

As a practical matter, neither constitutional provision plays much of a role in modern Ireland, a country that little resembles the socially conservative bastion once firmly under the grip of the Catholic Church.

Whatever risks they may run in eternity, Irish blasphemers face little chance of punishment in this world. But the prohibition is still in the Constitution, and a corresponding law is on the books, with a top fine of almost $30,000.

Last year, the English actor Stephen Fry was reported to the Irish police for blasphemy after he made comments disparaging God in an interview on a religious affairs television program.

If he ever met God, Mr. Fry said, he would ask him: “How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right. It’s utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?”

Prosecutors declined to pursue the case, and government officials have made clear that they view the blasphemy law as meaningless. Last year, Simon Harris, the health minister, called it “silly” and “a little embarrassing.”

When the law was introduced in 2009, officials claimed that they were just adhering to the constitutional requirement that one exist — and that they had written it to be essentially unenforceable. (The law replaced a measure outlawing only blasphemy against Christianity, not other faiths. It was found to be discriminatory.)

But Eoin Daly, a lecturer in constitutional law at the National University of Ireland, Galway, said that it was possible prosecution might occur in an “egregious case,” and that the law had a “chilling effect” as long as it stayed on the books.

Michael Nugent, a spokesman for the advocacy group Atheism Ireland, welcomed the referendum, saying that even in the absence of prosecutions the law was causing real damage to freedom of expression in Ireland, and to the country’s reputation abroad.

Mr. Nugent said he was aware of cases in which news organizations had “self-censored” to avoid the potential cost of a blasphemy complaint, however vexatious.

And internationally, he said, the wording of Ireland’s law has been taken up by Islamic states seeking to justify their own blasphemy laws.

“We became a Western poster boy for Islamic states and their oppressive practices,” Mr. Nugent said. “It’s never a good look when Pakistan, where people are killed for blasphemy, is speaking approvingly of your laws.”

In announcing the referendum on Tuesday, Ireland’s justice minister, Charles Flanagan, also pointed to countries where blasphemy was punishable by death.

“Such situations are abhorrent to our beliefs and values,” Mr. Flanagan said. “By removing this provision from our Constitution, we can send a strong message to the world that laws against blasphemy do not reflect Irish values.”

The second clause that may go before voters in October is in a part of the Constitution covering the family.

“In particular,” it says, “the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved. The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”

Ailbhe Smyth, a veteran feminist campaigner, said that provision was a relic.

“It was very patriarchal,” she said. “The problem was, it never did women any good. It was never used by any government to ensure that women, or anyone else who stayed in the home, got any extra support or recognition. It’s redundant and obsolete and needs to be placed with all the other relics that Ireland is now getting rid of.”

Irish citizens have, in fact, found repeated occasion in recent years to revisit the social strictures embedded in their Constitution. They have voted to allow divorce and same-sex marriage and, last month, to remove an abortion ban.

“Things like abortion and same-sex marriage and blasphemy are seen as religious issues, sectarian issues, and there is now a desire to remove them from the Constitution,” said Dr. Daly, the university lecturer. “It’s about how we make statements about ourselves and express our changing identity.”

Unlike the referendums on divorce, same-sex marriage and abortion, the move to decriminalize blasphemy has met with little opposition from the Irish Catholic Church or from most religious denominations.

David Quinn, a spokesman for the Iona Institute, a conservative Christian policy group, said he had long favored removing the blasphemy clause. He also supports either removing the clause on women in the home or changing it to make it gender neutral.

The blasphemy clause has drawn some support elsewhere. In 2013 a leading Dublin-based Islamic group, the Islamic Cultural Center, and the Knights of Columbanus, a conservative Catholic fraternity, both argued unsuccessfully against ending it at a constitutional convention in Dublin.

Ireland’s Constitution can be amended only by a majority vote in a popular referendum.


Other relevant sauces:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0828/988011-presidential-election/
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/atheist-ireland-to-launch-campaign-for-the-removal-of-blasphemy-law-37369069.html
https://iheu.org/blasphemy-accused-tell-ireland-time-abolish-blasphemy-law/
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0612/970070-blasphemy/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/06/13/in-ireland-blasphemy-can-cost-you-30000-a-referendum-could-change-that/?utm_term=.af602329df3e
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44458814

On October 26 of this year, the same day as the Irish presidential election, a referendum will be held in which the Irish people will be able to vote to remove the offense of blasphemy from the Irish constitution and a campaign by Irish atheist groups is underway to persuade voters to vote in favor of the removal.

My thoughts: I hope the Irish people vote in favor of removing blasphemy as an offense from the Irish constitution. IMO, blasphemy laws have no place in modern western society where free speech and religious liberty are generally accept as core principles.

What about you guys? What are your thoughts on this referendum to remove the prohibition on blasphemy from the Irish constitution?
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:11 pm

If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.
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Postby Page » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:16 pm

Blasphemy laws are incompatible with a free and democratic society. Even though the law is not actively enforced, striking it from the Constitution is still a powerful statement that shows commitment to secular democracy.
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

Nah, blasphemy laws shouldn't be enforced on anyone.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:18 pm

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Postby Geneviev » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:19 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

That would make it very complicated for the government. It's better for governments to stay out of religion if it's possible. Religions should enforce their own laws separately.
Last edited by Geneviev on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kowani » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:21 pm

It’s about time. Welcome to the modern world, Ireland.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:23 pm

Good on Ireland. It's time to remove such relics from the constitution.
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:25 pm

I expect that whether this passes or not will depend a lot on Atheist Ireland actually putting out a case for voting Yes. Based purely on personal experience, I don't think there's any great appetite for keeping our blasphemy law, and it's not like the Catholic Church has as much sway over the public as in decades past, but, also based purely on personal experience, you don't need to have a very strong No campaign to beat a non-existent Yes campaign.

I'm hopeful that we'll win this won. I'm pretty sure I've heard Michael Nugent do radio interviews before and as far as I recall he doesn't come off as a crazy "Ban all religion!" sort of atheist, and aside from the Catholic Church, I can't see anyone else putting up much of a fight for keeping the blasphemy law. If I'm around Clonskeagh before the vote I must see if the mosque puts up any No posters.
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:30 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:If blasphemy is illegal in Christianity and/or Catholicism, then this law should stay in place and should be enforced on Christians/Catholics.

That would make it very complicated for the government. It's better for governments to stay out of religion if it's possible. Religions should enforce their own laws separately.

That's only possible if it has gov support.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:31 pm

Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:31 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?

Yes
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Postby Geneviev » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:33 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That would make it very complicated for the government. It's better for governments to stay out of religion if it's possible. Religions should enforce their own laws separately.

That's only possible if it has gov support.

Which it should have, but the government itself shouldn't have a blasphemy law.

Kubumba Tribe wrote:Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?

Yes it is.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:36 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:If it's in their constitution, than let it occur.

I won't say I believe in it, but it's not my place to riff people for their religious-based constitutions that form a core basis of their identity.

Thing is it wasn’t pulled out until a few years ago when one guy called the cops on a comedian
Otherwise nobody seems to actually care
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?

Catholicism, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't really have crimes that are punished. It has sins, which it holds will be punished by God if the sinner does not avail themselves of God's forgiveness. If Catholic canon calls for temporal punishment of sins, the punishments are defrocking, for the clergy, or excommunication. There wouldn't be anything like "Blasphemers get 40 lashes".
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Postby Iridencia » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:Catholics, is blasphemy a punishable crime according to Catholicism?


Better question: Who the fuck cares if it is?

Eternal Lotharia wrote:If it's in their constitution, than let it occur.

I won't say I believe in it, but it's not my place to riff people for their religious-based constitutions that form a core basis of their identity.


A) It's really not a part of Ireland's identity anymore.

B) Why not?

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Postby Luziyca » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:49 pm

...good on them.

But I imagine that at some point, there's going to be voter fatigue. Maybe have a way to amend the constitution without putting it to a referendum?
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:52 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Thing is it wasn’t pulled out until a few years ago when one guy called the cops on a comedian
Otherwise nobody seems to actually care

I won't lie, seems like as dick and corrupt move.

Still, if it's constitutional/core part of their religion, they should be able to add it in, if the populace wants it.

Catholicism is a core part of Ireland's constitution and was popular. Abolishing or frantically altering a Democratic State's Constitution because you dislike it is the tool of Demagogues, tyrants, corrupt politicians, partisans, and extremists. It's formed a core part of the legal and cultural identity of Ireland. They shouldn't change it because some people dislike it, and are being whiny because they want to force their political beliefs in place of that one's, it's hypocrisy.

What I think you're not getting is that the Constitution of Ireland can only be amended by referendum. That is, by public vote. No one is forcing a change on us that we do not want. We are being asked if we want to change. And there's no fiddly rules or complicated systems to navigate. It's just a straight Yes/No vote, most votes wins.
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Postby Iridencia » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:52 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Iridencia wrote:

A) It's really not a part of Ireland's identity anymore.

B) Why not?

A Democratic Constitution at time of founding supersedes popular will later on. However if it prevents people from being able to vote or being citizens, then it is not Democratic and thus illegitimate.

EDIT: That's how Constitutions work and why they are made. They form the very basis of a lot of things in society, and thus shouldn't be abolished or radically changed based on a whim. Else it defeats the purpose of Constitutions and makes rule by law rule by popular opinion, in other words, mobocracy.


Yeah, no. Democracy's entire purpose is to put the will of the people who are being ruled into action. The people who originally write a constitution will, eventually, be dead, and thus not "the people" in question that the democracy is concerned with anymore. If a constitution fails to reflect the values and desires of the people whose lives it is directly effecting, then that's not democracy—that's just being ruled over by your ancestors.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:52 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Iridencia wrote:

A) It's really not a part of Ireland's identity anymore.

B) Why not?

A Democratic Constitution at time of founding supersedes popular will later on. However if it prevents people from being able to vote or being citizens, then it is not Democratic and thus illegitimate.

EDIT: That's how Constitutions work and why they are made. They form the very basis of a lot of things in society, and thus shouldn't be abolished or radically changed based on a whim. Else it defeats the purpose of Constitutions and makes rule by law rule by popular opinion, in other words, mobocracy.

Of course, amendments are a thing. This is a very small amendment, seeing as its apparently not part of Ireland’s national identity anymore.
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Postby TURTLESHROOM II » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:53 pm

Ireland has already demonstrated its total commitment to apostasy and, metaphorically speaking, the Druids are back in control now that sexual decadence, sexual immorality, and the slaughter of human fetuses are universally sactioned. Ireland will not be coming back to any sort of morally upright living in my lifetime, if ever. The Catholic Church has no power there.

That said, this is something that I completely and totally applaud. Like government subsidization of religion and tax dollars going to churches, compulsory religion is Satanic. No blasphemy law should exist, as it is a suppression of the Free Will that God intended for all men to exercise in choosing to find Him. No tax money should go to any religion, as it is an endorsement of and gateway for the state to subjugate the Church and her autonomy. It is also a gateway to

I commend Ireland for finally ending the abomination that is the blasphemy law and hope to see a world where blasphemy laws do not exist. I also hope for an America when the Blaine Amendment is in the federal Constitution or, at the least, the Supreme Court finally respects states' rights and lets states prevent the government from giving tax money to a given church.

God will take care of those blaspheming Him; they will rot in Hell where they belong.

Why am I so big on the Blaine Amendment, blasphemy laws, and the subsidization of religion? -because today it's for your church. Tomorrow, it's for Islam.
Last edited by TURTLESHROOM II on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Liamese Empire
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Postby The Liamese Empire » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:55 pm

They should keep it, maybe not enforce it though
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Postby The South Falls » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:55 pm

The Liamese Empire wrote:They should keep it, maybe not enforce it though

An unenforced law is worthless.
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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:57 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Yes

Geneviev wrote:Yes it is.

What's the punishment?
Geneviev wrote:Which it should have, but the government itself shouldn't have a blasphemy law.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you think there should be a separate religious government and secular government?
Last edited by Kubumba Tribe on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Yes

Geneviev wrote:What's the punishment?

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you think there should be a separate religious government and secular government?

Yes, for each religion and a separate secular one.
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