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Trump Climate Report Predicts 4°C Temp Rise by 2100

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Dahon
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Trump Climate Report Predicts 4°C Temp Rise by 2100

Postby Dahon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:38 am

Credits to Gravlen for making this thread possible at all, as well as the Washington Post for depriving me of sleep for the last 22 hours. (I just thought this piece of news is too broad for the concerns of the MAGAthread. I'm sorry.)

Here is the Washington Post article in its entirety, for those of us (including me) who can't get past the paywall.

Last month, deep in a 500-page environmental impact statement, the Trump administration made a startling assumption: On its current course, the planet will warm a disastrous seven degrees by the end of this century.

A rise of seven degrees Fahrenheit, or about four degrees Celsius, compared with preindustrial levels would be catastrophic, according to scientists. Many coral reefs would dissolve in increasingly acidic oceans. Parts of Manhattan and Miami would be underwater without costly coastal defenses. Extreme heat waves would routinely smother large parts of the globe.

But the administration did not offer this dire forecast, premised on the idea that the world will fail to cut its greenhouse gas emissions, as part of an argument to combat climate change. Just the opposite: The analysis assumes the planet’s fate is already sealed.

The draft statement, issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), was written to justify President Trump’s decision to freeze federal fuel-efficiency standards for cars and light trucks built after 2020. While the proposal would increase greenhouse gas emissions, the impact statement says, that policy would add just a very small drop to a very big, hot bucket.

“The amazing thing they’re saying is human activities are going to lead to this rise of carbon dioxide that is disastrous for the environment and society. And then they’re saying they’re not going to do anything about it,” said Michael MacCracken, who served as a senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program from 1993 to 2002.

The document projects that global temperature will rise by nearly 3.5 degrees Celsius above the average temperature between 1986 and 2005 regardless of whether Obama-era tailpipe standards take effect or are frozen for six years, as the Trump administration has proposed. The global average temperature rose more than 0.5 degrees Celsius between 1880, the start of industrialization, and 1986, so the analysis assumes a roughly four degree Celsius or seven degree Fahrenheit increase from preindustrial levels.

The world would have to make deep cuts in carbon emissions to avoid this drastic warming, the analysis states. And that “would require substantial increases in technology innovation and adoption compared to today’s levels and would require the economy and the vehicle fleet to move away from the use of fossil fuels, which is not currently technologically feasible or economically feasible.”

The White House did not respond to requests for comment.

World leaders have pledged to keep the world from warming more than two degrees Celsius compared with preindustrial levels, and agreed to try to keep the temperature rise to 1.5 degrees Celsius. But the current greenhouse gas cuts pledged under the 2015 Paris climate agreement are not steep enough to meet either goal. Scientists predict a four degree Celsius rise by the century’s end if countries take no meaningful actions to curb their carbon output.

Trump has vowed to exit the Paris accord and called climate change a hoax. In the past two months, the White House has pushed to dismantle nearly half a dozen major rules aimed at reducing greenhouse gases, deregulatory moves intended to save companies hundreds of millions of dollars.

If enacted, the administration’s proposals would give new life to aging coal plants; allow oil and gas operations to release more methane into the atmosphere; and prevent new curbs on greenhouse gases used in refrigerators and air-conditioning units. The vehicle rule alone would put 8 billion additional tons of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere this century, more than a year’s worth of total U.S. emissions, according to the government’s own analysis.

Administration estimates acknowledge that the policies would release far more greenhouse gas emissions from America’s energy and transportation sectors than otherwise would have been allowed.

The statement is the latest evidence of deep contradictions in the Trump administration’s approach to climate change.

Despite Trump’s skepticism, federal agencies conducting scientific research have often reaffirmed that humans are causing climate change, including in a major 2017 report that found “no convincing alternative explanation.” In one internal White House memo, officials wondered whether it would be best to simply “ignore” such analyses.

In this context, the draft environmental impact statement from NHTSA — which simultaneously outlines a scenario for very extreme climate change, and yet offers it to support an environmental rollback — is simply the latest apparent inconsistency.

David Pettit, a senior attorney at the Natural Resources Defense Council who testified against Trump’s freeze of car mileage standards Monday in Fresno, Calif., said his organization is prepared to use the administration’s own numbers to challenge its regulatory rollbacks. He noted that NHTSA document projects that if the world takes no action to curb emissions, current atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide would rise from 410 parts per million to 789 ppm by 2100.

“I was shocked when I saw it,” Pettit said in a phone interview. “These are their numbers. They aren’t our numbers.”

Conservatives who condemned President Barack Obama’s climate initiatives as regulatory overreach have defended the Trump administration’s approach, calling it a more reasonable course.

Obama’s climate policies were costly to industry and yet “mostly symbolic,” because they would have made barely a dent in global carbon dioxide emissions, said Heritage Foundation research fellow Nick Loris, adding: “Frivolous is a good way to describe it.”

NHTSA commissioned ICF International Inc., a consulting firm based in Fairfax, Va., to help prepare the impact statement. An agency spokeswoman said the Environmental Protection Agency “and NHTSA welcome comments on all aspects of the environmental analysis” but declined to provide additional information about the agency’s long-term temperature forecast.

Federal agencies typically do not include century-long climate projections in their environmental impact statements. Instead, they tend to assess a regulation’s impact during the life of the program — the years a coal plant would run, for example, or the amount of time certain vehicles would be on the road.

Using the no-action scenario “is a textbook example of how to lie with statistics,” said MIT Sloan School of Management professor John Sterman. “First, the administration proposes vehicle efficiency policies that would do almost nothing [to fight climate change]. Then [the administration] makes their impact seem even smaller by comparing their proposals to what would happen if the entire world does nothing.”

This week, U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres warned leaders gathered in New York, “If we do not change course in the next two years, we risk runaway climate change . . . Our future is at stake.”

Federal and independent research — including projections included in last month’s analysis of the revised fuel-efficiency standards — echoes that theme. The environmental impact statement cites “evidence of climate-induced changes,” such as more frequent droughts, floods, severe storms and heat waves, and estimates that seas could rise nearly three feet globally by 2100 if the world does not decrease its carbon output.

Two articles published in the journal Science since late July — both co-authored by federal scientists — predicted that the global landscape could be transformed “without major reductions in greenhouse gas emissions” and declared that soaring temperatures worldwide bore humans’ “fingerprint.”

“With this administration, it’s almost as if this science is happening in another galaxy,” said Rachel Cleetus, policy director and lead economist for the Union of Concerned Scientists’ climate and energy program. “That feedback isn’t informing the policy.”

Administration officials say they take federal scientific findings into account when crafting energy policy — along with their interpretation of the law and Trump’s agenda. The EPA’s acting administrator, Andrew Wheeler, has been among the Trump officials who have noted that U.S. emissions of carbon dioxide and other pollutants have fallen over time.

But the debate comes after a troubling summer of devastating wildfires, record-breaking heat and a catastrophic hurricane — each of which, federal scientists say, signals a warming world.

Some Democratic elected officials, such as Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, said Americans are starting to recognize these events as evidence of climate change. On Feb. 25, Inslee met privately with several Cabinet officials, including then-EPA chief Scott Pruitt, and Western state governors. Inslee accused them of engaging in “morally reprehensible” behavior that threatened his children and grandchildren, according to four meeting participants, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to provide details of the private conversation.

In an interview, Inslee said that the ash from wildfires that covered Washington residents’ car hoods this summer, and the acrid smoke that filled their air, has made more voters of both parties grasp the real-world implications of climate change.

“There is anger in my state about the administration’s failure to protect us,” he said. “When you taste it on your tongue, it’s a reality.”


Feel free to discuss the Trump administration's hoarder mentality in extremis. Feel free to vent on the evil manifest in Donald Trump and in those who associate with him and his policies. I won't. To me, this is not about them.

This is about those who will have to live and suffer and die for the sake of and as a result of other people's shortsightedness, those whose terminus will be more or less predetermined should they be born after, say, the decade after next.

I know empathy is an insult to those we ourselves wound so fatally, but all the same, everything I have goes out to those generations as yet unborn, yet whose lives will be cut short by our slips and sins. All I can offer you are my worthless apologies.
Last edited by Dahon on Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Great-America » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:42 am

Nah, we won't die out because of holding onto coal for 10 years more. The transition to clean energy is inevitable and nigh regardless of who's in office, and it won't come too late. We are already on the right track.

The eighty-year forecasts, regardless of whom they are made by, are worthless. They claim to account for technological progress and to be accurate, but look at the ones we've drawn up before. Look at Gore.
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Postby Kowani » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:43 am

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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:52 am

Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries. Emissions across the EU have been falling for almost 50 years and per capita have been falling in the US since before Reagan, and have fallen in totality for coming up to 20. Waste and plastic use has fallen in both for over two decades, light pollution has been gradually eliminated and carbon monoxide has been in freefall with the development of more efficient and less pollutive modes of transport inc. cars. The wider measurements of all of these problems on a global scale or somewherethatisnothere is none of (our) concern.*

*No, that includes international trade. There's no such thing as exporting pollution - China is polluting the world far more than the U.S. ever did.

So long as the basic expectation remains that the working people of developed countries are going to pay - or to even contribute - to fix the world, I will go on conveniently denying climate change exists.
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:54 am

Great-America wrote:Nah, we won't die out because of holding onto coal for 10 years more. The transition to clean energy is inevitable and nigh regardless of who's in office, and it won't come too late. We are already on the right track.


Not all of us, no. But many millions of us will.

The eighty-year forecasts, regardless of whom they are made by, are worthless. They claim to account for technological progress and to be accurate, but look at the ones we've drawn up before.


By and large, we're in line with them.

Look at Gore.


He isn't a scientist, doesn't know what he's talking about, and thus his opinion on the matter is singularly irrelevant.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

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Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:55 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries. Emissions across the EU have been falling for almost 50 years and per capita have been falling in the US since before Reagan, and have fallen in totality for coming up to 20. Waste and plastic use has fallen in both for over two decades, light pollution has been gradually eliminated and carbon monoxide has been in freefall with the development of more efficient and less pollutive modes of transport inc. cars. The wider measurements of all of these problems on a global scale or somewherethatisnothere is none of (our) concern.*

*No, that includes international trade. There's no such thing as exporting pollution - China is polluting the world far more than the U.S. ever did.

So long as the basic expectation remains that the working people of developed countries are going to pay - or to even contribute - to fix the world, I will go on conveniently denying climate change exists.


So you're genuinely willing to harm yourself, just because the alternative might help other people, as well as yourself?
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Postby Grenartia » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:01 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries. Emissions across the EU have been falling for almost 50 years and per capita have been falling in the US since before Reagan, and have fallen in totality for coming up to 20. Waste and plastic use has fallen in both for over two decades, light pollution has been gradually eliminated and carbon monoxide has been in freefall with the development of more efficient and less pollutive modes of transport inc. cars. The wider measurements of all of these problems on a global scale or somewherethatisnothere is none of (our) concern.*

*No, that includes international trade. There's no such thing as exporting pollution - China is polluting the world far more than the U.S. ever did.

So long as the basic expectation remains that the working people of developed countries are going to pay - or to even contribute - to fix the world, I will go on conveniently denying climate change exists.


So you're genuinely willing to harm yourself, just because the alternative might help other people, as well as yourself?


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Postby Myrensis » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:02 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries. Emissions across the EU have been falling for almost 50 years and per capita have been falling in the US since before Reagan, and have fallen in totality for coming up to 20. Waste and plastic use has fallen in both for over two decades, light pollution has been gradually eliminated and carbon monoxide has been in freefall with the development of more efficient and less pollutive modes of transport inc. cars. The wider measurements of all of these problems on a global scale or somewherethatisnothere is none of (our) concern.*

*No, that includes international trade. There's no such thing as exporting pollution - China is polluting the world far more than the U.S. ever did.

So long as the basic expectation remains that the working people of developed countries are going to pay - or to even contribute - to fix the world, I will go on conveniently denying climate change exists.


So you're genuinely willing to harm yourself, just because the alternative might help other people, as well as yourself?


He's a conservative, so obviously. I also enjoy the "Now that we've sort of started cleaning up our act, after having reached our current prosperity and quality of life via wildly irresponsible activity, that means it's not our fault or our problem any more and it's all those dirty foreigners who need to figure it out!"

In any case, I am morbidly amused that the Trump Administration now acknowledges that climate change is real, only for the purpose of arguing that since we're all fucked anyway there's no need to bother with any better environmental practices.
Last edited by Myrensis on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Grenartia » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:03 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries.


What a load of horse shit. Unless you're going to now attempt to argue that the United States itself is a "developing country".
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Postby Dahon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:05 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries. Emissions across the EU have been falling for almost 50 years and per capita have been falling in the US since before Reagan, and have fallen in totality for coming up to 20. Waste and plastic use has fallen in both for over two decades, light pollution has been gradually eliminated and carbon monoxide has been in freefall with the development of more efficient and less pollutive modes of transport inc. cars. The wider measurements of all of these problems on a global scale or somewherethatisnothere is none of (our) concern.*

*No, that includes international trade. There's no such thing as exporting pollution - China is polluting the world far more than the U.S. ever did.

So long as the basic expectation remains that the working people of developed countries are going to pay - or to even contribute - to fix the world, I will go on conveniently denying climate change exists.


I'm... too tired to rage at you, so I will say this.

The impending death of millions of your own people in the future is the opposite of "convenient".
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Postby Saiwania » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:09 am

Its not enough to simply stop or reduce all carbon emissions, that is never going to happen 100% in my view. What we also need to focus on is carbon removal. Only getting as much CO2 out of the atmosphere as fast as possible, can gradually cool the planet back down towards where it should be at.

More investment in Direct Air Capture, BECCS, or any other promising methods of getting negative emissions would be a major part of any solution. Left to purely natural processes, the Earth would take 500+ years for the greenhouse gases to dissipate; assuming there are no new emissions. It should be obvious that it isn't optional to find a way to drastically speed this up.

Some parts of the Earth might have to temporarily be abandoned in terms of human settlement, but it can be reclaimed at a later time once enough CO2 has been removed or reduced in terms of concentration in parts per million. It is possible to remove carbon, just not at a large enough scale to make a tangible difference overnight. If large scale carbon removal was started (combined with a renewables only economy), I think it can be done over only 100 years. The solution will involve chemistry combined with technology.

People who understand chemical reactions or processes, would be best equipped with regards on how to get the Carbon problem under control.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:13 am

Grenartia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Climate change is a problem for the developing countries created by developing countries.


What a load of horse shit. Unless you're going to now attempt to argue that the United States itself is a "developing country".


It is, but that's beyond the point. The world had no issues at 1960-1970 levels of emissions, which is when emissions in the West peaked.
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Postby Grenartia » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:15 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
What a load of horse shit. Unless you're going to now attempt to argue that the United States itself is a "developing country".


It is, but that's beyond the point. The world had no issues at 1960-1970 levels of emissions, which is when emissions in the West peaked.


You obviously have no understanding of the concept of "delayed onset".

Also, if the US is a developing country, then literally nowhere is developed.
Last edited by Grenartia on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Painisia » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:15 am

Well, I see Trump wanting to be a science professor today. "climate change created by developing countries for developing countries": What are you eating for breakfast?
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Postby Dahon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 am

Saiwania wrote:Its not enough to simply stop or reduce all carbon emissions, that is never going to happen 100% in my view. What we also need to focus on is carbon removal. Only getting as much CO2 out of the atmosphere as fast as possible, can gradually cool the planet back down towards where it should be at.

More investment in Direct Air Capture, BECCS, or any other promising methods of getting negative emissions would be a major part of any solution. Left to purely natural processes, the Earth would take 500+ years for the greenhouse gases to dissipate; assuming there are no new emissions. It should be obvious that it isn't optional to find a way to drastically speed this up.

Some parts of the Earth might have to temporarily be abandoned in terms of human settlement, but it can be reclaimed at a later time once enough CO2 has been removed or reduced in terms of concentration in parts per million. It is possible to remove carbon, just not at a large enough scale to make a tangible difference overnight. If large scale carbon removal was started (combined with a renewables only economy), I think it can be done over only 100 years. The solution will involve chemistry combined with technology.


... which will have to be accomplished at a scale quite unseen beyond the drawing board, without the support of the world's lone superpower and its "genius" president.

It's... I mean, do what you can.
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Postby Uxupox » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
What a load of horse shit. Unless you're going to now attempt to argue that the United States itself is a "developing country".


It is, but that's beyond the point. The world had no issues at 1960-1970 levels of emissions, which is when emissions in the West peaked.


It not based on growing emissions but on the the greenhouse gas effect already in the atmosphere. A 1 Celsius degree change is an amazingly powerful tool for even the most bacteria to express a gene transformation. A 4 Celsius change however is going to make something go "bye-bye".
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Postby Uxupox » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:21 am

Dahon wrote:
Saiwania wrote:Its not enough to simply stop or reduce all carbon emissions, that is never going to happen 100% in my view. What we also need to focus on is carbon removal. Only getting as much CO2 out of the atmosphere as fast as possible, can gradually cool the planet back down towards where it should be at.

More investment in Direct Air Capture, BECCS, or any other promising methods of getting negative emissions would be a major part of any solution. Left to purely natural processes, the Earth would take 500+ years for the greenhouse gases to dissipate; assuming there are no new emissions. It should be obvious that it isn't optional to find a way to drastically speed this up.

Some parts of the Earth might have to temporarily be abandoned in terms of human settlement, but it can be reclaimed at a later time once enough CO2 has been removed or reduced in terms of concentration in parts per million. It is possible to remove carbon, just not at a large enough scale to make a tangible difference overnight. If large scale carbon removal was started (combined with a renewables only economy), I think it can be done over only 100 years. The solution will involve chemistry combined with technology.


... which will have to be accomplished at a scale quite unseen beyond the drawing board, without the support of the world's lone superpower and its "genius" president.

It's... I mean, do what you can.


China is actually the world's top producer of CO2 emissions. And honestly the rate that the ex pulse those emissions is actually growing.
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:22 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45640706

Considering China is building new coal power plants, maybe it is just every country for themselves...
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:28 am

Grenartia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
It is, but that's beyond the point. The world had no issues at 1960-1970 levels of emissions, which is when emissions in the West peaked.


You obviously have no understanding of the concept of "delayed onset".


Such is the cost of progress. But since then they have been falling, and so it would return to natural levels over several generations.

I suppose if you want to take the view that the West has a moral duty to care for Mother Earth, we can have another global war to colonialise the Orient and keep them poor again, but that's not very nice. It's up to them to find solutions to alternative growth. They're not attempting to do so, and are being even more careless than the US or the UK ever were during their own industrial revolution. They're the first to get hit with the effects. Nobody cares.

Now give me back my green taxes on fuel and electricity bills.

Grenartia wrote:Also, if the US is a developing country, then literally nowhere is developed.


It's one place below Slovakia on HDI. Only once we include New England et al. Looking at the Pacific states or the Deep South you'd struggle to find a reason to place them near European levels.

Painisia wrote:Well, I see Trump wanting to be a science professor today. "climate change created by developing countries for developing countries": What are you eating for breakfast?


I will pretend I understood what you said.

Uxupox wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
It is, but that's beyond the point. The world had no issues at 1960-1970 levels of emissions, which is when emissions in the West peaked.


It not based on growing emissions but on the the greenhouse gas effect already in the atmosphere. A 1 Celsius degree change is an amazingly powerful tool for even the most bacteria to express a gene transformation. A 4 Celsius change however is going to make something go "bye-bye".


Growing emissions exaggerate the effect. I don't see what you're disagreeing with.
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dahon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:30 am

Kowani wrote:...Shiiiiit. You know what? Fuck this species. Space colony time.


... how far are we as a species in actually making living long-term in space (or another planet if possible) a reality as well as an escape hatch, technologically speaking? I mean, I understand the appetite for large-scale budget-busters like the above has died down significantly since the '70s, but it hasn't completely stalled, right?
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Postby Uxupox » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:30 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
You obviously have no understanding of the concept of "delayed onset".


Such is the cost of progress. But since then they have been falling, and so it would return to natural levels over several generations.

Grenartia wrote:Also, if the US is a developing country, then literally nowhere is developed.


It's one place below Slovakia on HDI. Only once we include New England et al. Looking at the Pacific states or the Deep South you'd struggle to find a reason to place them near European levels.

Painisia wrote:Well, I see Trump wanting to be a science professor today. "climate change created by developing countries for developing countries": What are you eating for breakfast?


I will pretend I understood what you said.

Uxupox wrote:
It not based on growing emissions but on the the greenhouse gas effect already in the atmosphere. A 1 Celsius degree change is an amazingly powerful tool for even the most bacteria to express a gene transformation. A 4 Celsius change however is going to make something go "bye-bye".


Growing emissions exaggerate the effect. I don't see what you're disagreeing with.


Climate change is natural phenomenon however the one currently occurring is a freak of nature that has been accelerated by humanity.
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:34 am

Uxupox wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Such is the cost of progress. But since then they have been falling, and so it would return to natural levels over several generations.



It's one place below Slovakia on HDI. Only once we include New England et al. Looking at the Pacific states or the Deep South you'd struggle to find a reason to place them near European levels.



I will pretend I understood what you said.



Growing emissions exaggerate the effect. I don't see what you're disagreeing with.


Climate change is natural phenomenon however the one currently occurring is a freak of nature that has been accelerated by humanity.


..then we're in agreement.
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Postby Saiwania » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:42 am

Dahon wrote:... which will have to be accomplished at a scale quite unseen beyond the drawing board, without the support of the world's lone superpower and its "genius" president.

It's... I mean, do what you can.


Trump and his fossil fuel loyalists won't be in control for forever, and all it is asking is attempting to clean up the mess we've left behind from previous decades up until now. Better than doing nothing in my view. It is attacking the problem at its source (the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere). A lower ppm of CO2 will equate to a lowering of global temperatures.

If 2 ppm of carbon is emitted in a given year, it is possible to subtract 1 ppm of carbon in that same year, as a conservative estimate. It'd be accomplished even faster if all fossil fuels are abandoned or relegated to niche use. Eventually a reasonable target is removing 2 or even 3 ppm of CO2 each year, with the total emissions being only 1 ppm or less.

It is only a matter of eventually getting the math to work, if enough innovation happens and priorities change to where it is economical or easier to embrace renewables combined with one or more forms of large scale negative emissions efforts. Planting trees however, isn't going to remove carbon fast enough. It'd be better to embrace Klaus Lackner's artificial trees. Why would anyone opt for an inferior product or method? You want whatever will remove more CO2 at a faster rate. The artificial or engineered method, is often superior to the natural. It will be no different in this case.

Man made climate change for the worse, requires a man made "fix" towards the better.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dahon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:46 am

Uxupox wrote:
Myrensis wrote:
It is a bit of irony. Whenever they wail about spending and deficits (only when it's Democrats, obviously) the argument is always "Think of our children and grandchildren! How dare you saddle them with this debt!"

But it's okay to leave our children and grandchildren with a flooded, toxic, overheated planet as long as it means geriatric Republicans can have a little more money right now. After all, why should they care, they'll have died in comfort and wealth long before the really bad shit sets in.


This is above partisan shit. From 1930 there has been top scientists in their respective fields denying any sort of allegation and actually producing studies that humanity had no interference in the change of the geological aspect. You even have a world renowned atmospheric scientist such as Dr. Anastasios Tsonis producing studies that specifically state that "I know that climate models are not adequate ... they don’t agree with reality.'"


Here is what I don't understand about these objections. I can accept, to a point, that long-term climate prediction models might be inaccurate, especially with eighty-plus years of trends to evaluate. (It doesn't help that I'm not as up to my climate science as I should be.) But here's the thing: we've head year-on-year reports on global climate, I don't know how long it's been going on, that this month has been the hottest such month on record, only to be topped next such month next year. Ditto with the year. What are we to make of those?
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:54 am

Saiwania wrote:
Dahon wrote:... which will have to be accomplished at a scale quite unseen beyond the drawing board, without the support of the world's lone superpower and its "genius" president.

It's... I mean, do what you can.


Trump and his fossil fuel loyalists won't be in control for forever, and all it is asking is attempting to clean up the mess we've left behind from previous decades up until now. Better than doing nothing in my view. It is attacking the problem at its source (the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere). A lower ppm of CO2 will equate to a lowering of global temperatures.

If 2 ppm of carbon is emitted in a given year, it is possible to subtract 1 ppm of carbon in that same year, as a conservative estimate. It'd be accomplished even faster if all fossil fuels are abandoned or relegated to niche use. Eventually a reasonable target is removing 2 or even 3 ppm of CO2 each year, with the total emissions being only 1 ppm or less.

It is only a matter of eventually getting the math to work, if enough innovation happens and priorities change to where it is economical or easier to embrace renewables combined with one or more forms of large scale negative emissions efforts. Planting trees however, isn't going to remove carbon fast enough. It'd be better to embrace Klaus Lackner's artificial trees. Why would anyone opt for an inferior product or method? You want whatever will remove more CO2 at a faster rate.


Because it would be a long term effort to preserve our current climate and biodiversity. More trees, an emergency halt to logging in biodiversity climates like the amazon, emergency anti coal effects, preserve the oceans PH balance, stopping the decline of coral reefs etc.
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