What was the point of "males make the first move" anyway?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Gender roles are absurd and arbitrary, and looks OP felt the pinch of patriarchy.

---

Nowadays, it's hard as f*ck for a man to be, well, a man.

I hated being a cis man, or rather pretending to be one, but it's safer to be a man than to be a woman or a non-binary person, tbh.

Well, I enjoy being a cis man, because I am comfortable with all the bits I was born with (and I ain't just talking about the dangling bit). Besides, I am a very passive man, so I don't feel the need to do "macho" stuff.

Your choice, my choice, all's well that ends well.

[NeoOasis]

What? Don't mess around with people who are in a state where they can't consent.

Yeah of course. But people drink alcohol in social environments, to say you must have a BAC of 0.0 before you do anything is stupid. No one does that. Welcome to the real world.

I don't think anyone is pushing for a 0.00 to do anything, but it is better to be cautious around alcohol. There are some serious legal ramifications when booze comes into play in larger quantities.

[New haven america]

Yeah of course. But people drink alcohol in social environments, to say you must have a BAC of 0.0 before you do anything is stupid. No one does that. Welcome to the real world.

I don't think anyone is pushing for a 0.00 to do anything, but it is better to be cautious around alcohol. There are some serious legal ramifications when booze comes into play in larger quantities.

All I'm doing is pointing out a stupid US law that needs to be fixed (Actually the entirety of US rape laws need to be fixed, this is just a part of it).

[Saiwania]

All I'm doing is pointing out a stupid US law that needs to be fixed (Actually the entirety of US rape laws need to be fixed, this is just a part of it).

It is impossible to make the letter of the law perfect. A society can be so pro-male as to be like Saudi Arabia or may be so pro-female as to be like Iceland. In any case, one biological sex has to lose out to the other in certain things, statistically speaking. It is just how this world is.

[Bakery Hill]

What? Don't mess around with people who are in a state where they can't consent.

Some people have trouble with that idea.

I'm totally going to take advice on this from the guy with the anime girl avatar.

[Bakery Hill]

Yeah of course. But people drink alcohol in social environments, to say you must have a BAC of 0.0 before you do anything is stupid. No one does that. Welcome to the real world.

I don't think anyone is pushing for a 0.00 to do anything, but it is better to be cautious around alcohol. There are some serious legal ramifications when booze comes into play in larger quantities.

"In large quantities" is obvious. Ethel was talking about a cocktail.

[Major-Tom]

There is a difference between making a move and being a fucking creep. It really isn't hard to understand the difference. Yes, males are expected to make the first move, and that's just how it goes. If you make that first move, good for you, you just can't be a creep, a weirdo, etc about it. I use these terms here because I know so many idiots who think "I made a move, I'm now entitled to something." It's like, no, dipshit McGee, that's not how it fucking works.

[Bakery Hill]

What he said. You talk with someone until you establish that there is mutual interest. And then you flirt a bit until someone makes a blatant move. It's not that complex.

[Saiwania]

There is a difference between making a move and being a fucking creep. It really isn't hard to understand the difference. Yes, males are expected to make the first move, and that's just how it goes. If you make that first move, good for you, you just can't be a creep, a weirdo, etc about it.

What is "weird" or "creepy" means different things to different people. At the end of the day, it is all just arbitrary opinions, highly dependent on location and prevailing culture. Everyone makes judgements about everything to some extent. If someone can't stand to make themselves vulnerable in any way, it is better to not make any move.

Being celibate by default, is a preferable path for some. There are ways to get sex or relationships without courtship or dating, just not obvious or straightforward in terms of any progression of events which reach towards that end goal.

[Major-Tom]

What he said. You talk with someone until you establish that there is mutual interest. And then you flirt a bit until someone makes a blatant move. It's not that complex.

For some folks, I suppose it is. And when someone has a tough time with that concept, y'know, I honestly don't judge. It's when people act like entitled assholes in regards to any sort of physical relationship that I begin to judge. You're right, once some sort of mutual interest is established, that's when either the man or woman (or man/man etc etc) should go in and make some sort of move. But, again, too many dudes think "I made some sort of move, I feel like I deserve this." Like, no, you actually don't.

IDK, maybe I just know some self-professed "nice guys" who actually are not nice when it comes to women because they expect such weird things like "oh, if I act nice and gentlemen like I'm guaranteed a girl!"

[Major-Tom]

There is a difference between making a move and being a fucking creep. It really isn't hard to understand the difference. Yes, males are expected to make the first move, and that's just how it goes. If you make that first move, good for you, you just can't be a creep, a weirdo, etc about it.

What is "weird" or "creepy" means different things to different people. At the end of the day, it is all just arbitrary opinions, highly dependent on location and prevailing culture. Everyone makes judgements about everything to some extent. If someone can't stand to make themselves vulnerable in any way, it is better to not make any move.

Being celibate by default, is a preferable path for some. There are ways to get sex or relationships without courtship or dating, just not obvious or straightforward in terms of any progression of events which reach towards that end goal.

I gotta disagree. I find that a partner, whether it be man, woman, or trans, is creeped out by someone who either tries ridiculously hard, acts like some perfect guy, or is just a straight up douche/mean person.

And, well, some people prefer celibacy, and if that's their preference, y'know, I'll respect it. I just think with sex and relationships, at least, knowing what my stupid 19 year old ass knows, is that some degree of flirting and interest has to be there. So, I guess I disagree when you say there can't be courtship or dating. In my experience, dating leads to some really fulfilling relationships with a person you're attracted to.

[Caracasus]

What he said. You talk with someone until you establish that there is mutual interest. And then you flirt a bit until someone makes a blatant move. It's not that complex.

For some folks, I suppose it is. And when someone has a tough time with that concept, y'know, I honestly don't judge. It's when people act like entitled assholes in regards to any sort of physical relationship that I begin to judge. You're right, once some sort of mutual interest is established, that's when either the man or woman (or man/man etc etc) should go in and make some sort of move. But, again, too many dudes think "I made some sort of move, I feel like I deserve this." Like, no, you actually don't.

IDK, maybe I just know some self-professed "nice guys" who actually are not nice when it comes to women because they expect such weird things like "oh, if I act nice and gentlemen like I'm guaranteed a girl!"

Yeah nice guy behaviour is a bit off - kind of like the assumption that if you do enough stuff, you'll get the girl I guess...

I dunno, I think a lot of problems stem from people just not really knowing what to do. Take any romcom you like, or any 80's movie in particular and a hell of a lot of those persistent romantic gestures would kind of translate as stalking in the real world. I guess if your sole learning experience of relationships comes from film and TV, then it's possible people are essentially acting out what they saw and getting really frustrated that the cute girl in the coffee shop took out a restraining order when they started playing guitar outside their window at 6am...

About the whole "men approaching women" thing though, I've been happily out of the dating game for some time now but I do kind of get the impression that things are changing and it is more acceptable socially for a woman to ask out a man.

[Bakery Hill]

What he said. You talk with someone until you establish that there is mutual interest. And then you flirt a bit until someone makes a blatant move. It's not that complex.

For some folks, I suppose it is. And when someone has a tough time with that concept, y'know, I honestly don't judge. It's when people act like entitled assholes in regards to any sort of physical relationship that I begin to judge. You're right, once some sort of mutual interest is established, that's when either the man or woman (or man/man etc etc) should go in and make some sort of move. But, again, too many dudes think "I made some sort of move, I feel like I deserve this." Like, no, you actually don't.

IDK, maybe I just know some self-professed "nice guys" who actually are not nice when it comes to women because they expect such weird things like "oh, if I act nice and gentlemen like I'm guaranteed a girl!"

It's really depressingly common in my experience as well.

[New haven america]

Some people have trouble with that idea.

I'm totally going to take advice on this from the guy with the anime girl avatar.

"And here we see the admitted communist, spending his days attempting and failing at wit on an internet browser game's forum."

[Saiwania]

I gotta disagree. I find that a partner, whether it be man, woman, or trans, is creeped out by someone who either tries ridiculously hard, acts like some perfect guy, or is just a straight up douche/mean person.

And, well, some people prefer celibacy, and if that's their preference, y'know, I'll respect it. I just think with sex and relationships, at least, knowing what my stupid 19 year old ass knows, is that some degree of flirting and interest has to be there. So, I guess I disagree when you say there can't be courtship or dating. In my experience, dating leads to some really fulfilling relationships with a person you're attracted to.

A minority of people out there like desperate, superficial, mean, etc. people. So I don't take any definition as a universal standard for "what people don't like." Nothing in this world is so black and white. There are only things that hurt or improve your chances, which is variable between different locations and cultures.

It is not that there can't be courtship or dating, so much as some people just find it too difficult, don't like it, or can't be bothered with it for whatever reason. It is how most people get a relationship, but there still exist some alternative paths which a minority of people may opt for.

[Costa Fierro]

It's hard to erase millennia of cultural conditioning.

Not really. Most species in nature have males competing for female attention. Birds, spiders, deer. They all compete for the attention of females, or exclusive reproductive rights.

I'm totally going to take advice on this from the guy with the anime girl avatar.

It'd do you well to learn from others.

[Bakery Hill]

I'm totally going to take advice on this from the guy with the anime girl avatar.

"And here we see the admitted communist, spending his days attempting and failing at wit on an internet browser game's forum."

That wasn't wit it was a statement of fact. And being a communist (although I'm not really a communist) doesn't stop me from forming meaningful and sometimes sexual relationships with people. An anime obsession on the other hand....

[Bakery Hill]

It's hard to erase millennia of cultural conditioning.

Not really. Most species in nature have males competing for female attention. Birds, spiders, deer. They all compete for the attention of females, or exclusive reproductive rights.

I'm totally going to take advice on this from the guy with the anime girl avatar.

It'd do you well to learn from others.

Life is a learning process. Some people teach you a great deal, others not so much.

[Dumb Ideologies]

As with Deism, the Supreme Being is the First Mover.

[Bakery Hill]

As with Deism, the Supreme Being is the First Mover.

God made the first move on Mary.

[Helensburgh]

Not up to date on the literature, but I think it's because women have to be more selective than males. A man can have unlimited children, a woman can only have a few in her lifetime.

[New haven america]

"And here we see the admitted communist, spending his days attempting and failing at wit on an internet browser game's forum."

1. That wasn't wit it was a statement of fact. And being a communist (although I'm not really a communist) doesn't stop me from forming meaningful and sometimes sexual relationships with people. 2.An anime obsession on the other hand....

1. I would try to come up with a rebuttal, but your consistent failure at wit is funnier than anything I could come up with.
2. You're just jealous cause my girls are fine AF~

[Costa Fierro]

Gender roles are absurd and arbitrary, and looks OP felt the pinch of patriarchy.

I wonder how the male-female courtship dynamic translates to patriarchy despite it being seen in numerous mammalian and non-mammalian species?

[Chestaan]

Gender roles are absurd and arbitrary, and looks OP felt the pinch of patriarchy.

---

Nowadays, it's hard as f*ck for a man to be, well, a man.

I hated being a cis man, or rather pretending to be one, but it's safer to be a man than to be a woman or a non-binary person, tbh.

Statistically speaking, it's more dangerous to be a man than a woman.

To the OP, it's a bullshit social norm that needs to be eliminated. It's probably based in reactionary values with regards to men being viewed as having to be "assertive" or "strong" in order to be considered manly, and where women being viewed as not having agency. Shy or socially anxious men are particularly screwed over by this.

[Bakery Hill]

1. That wasn't wit it was a statement of fact. And being a communist (although I'm not really a communist) doesn't stop me from forming meaningful and sometimes sexual relationships with people. 2.An anime obsession on the other hand....

1. I would try to come up with a rebuttal, but your consistent failure at wit is funnier than anything I could come up with.

It's not even an attempt at "being witty". You just display a profound lack of knowledge on this subject, and that's unsurprising considering your avatar.

2. You're just jealous cause my girls are fine AF~

Nah man they look kind of juvenile and it's bit creepy.