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What was the point of "males make the first move" anyway?

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:03 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Then that's your opinion and it's probably wrong.

And what makes your opinion right?


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Though I hear more people screaming "oh God" during sex, than during cleaning.
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:06 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:And what makes your opinion right?


God likes cleanliness, it's next to godliness.
Though I hear more people screaming "oh God" during sex, than during cleaning.

I mean, the ecstasy and adrenaline rush of orgasm is heavenly.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:54 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
New haven america wrote:You think you know about stuff like this when you really don't.


I do know this stuff. I do know about this. Oddly enough, being on the spectrum and experiencing issues with interpersonal relationships (including friendships) gives someone an insight into how they work.

Scomagia wrote:How is it a recipe for guarantee failure? Explain yourself.


People with high-functioning autism have difficulties with a number of things that are essential in relationships, namely things like empathy, reading body language, communication, and emotional intelligence. These can make relationships difficult with people who don't have high-functioning autism, and having a desire for such things like emotional support and understanding but not receiving it from their partner (as is expected in relationships) will often lead to problems, which cannot always be resolved.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:I mean he is right, but only at a "on paper" point of view.

On paper yes, it sounds hella bad, but in reality it just really depends a lot.

For instance, on paper yes, the odds of a fulfilling relationship sounds awful, but on the field this relationship stuff isn't quite as dire as it looks.


On paper statistics are studies from in the field with people who are and are not in relationships. There's a reason why people studying how it affects relationships point out the difficulties and the odds involved.

Oddly enough some of us are parents of kids on the spectrum. And there are plenty of kids in the many programs my kid has gone to over the years and they have dates and relationships. Primarily I suppose because they are open about them.

Now I have had a heart attack, so I know very well what my particular kind of heart attack feels like. I am expert on the feels of it. That said if someone else were having the exact same heart attack as I did, he would he a damm fool to ask me to how to fix it.

It is kind of the same with autism, just because you have it, does not make you expert in how to deal with it. And one thing you really need to work on, is your distrust of the world.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Post War America » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:14 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Needless to say, inverting the norm would go a long way to actually TESTING these theories of males and females. So for what purpose is it still the way it is?

Firstly, it seems to be emphasized a lot more to girls than to guys. I actually heard the opposite growing up, and was a little surprised at what the actual norm was. Could it have been done to delay teen sex as long as possible?

Might this social norm have been designed to prevent the same thing from happening among us as among other species?

If it did happen, would it be irreversible?


1) I believe that the rationale behind men making "the first move" as it were, is largely behind historical social norms that place emphasis on the more active masculine gender role, in comparison to the more passive feminine gender role. Men in this case are expected to actively pursue what they want, while women are expected to wait passively for someone reasonably within their standards to approach them. Is this standard fair, not really. In many ways it hurts both men and women who fail to meet social norms. However, it is upheld by long extant norms and not so easily undone, even if it has been loosened in recent years.

2) I've never heard that the opposite was true ever. I don't personally know where you grew up to hear that, but I know that its not something I've experienced. In fact it was quite surprising to find women approach me to ask for dates. As to why the social norm may be less enforced, I cannot really say why.

3) I doubt it, the concept of hypergamy as a concept wasn't really created until the 19th century. The notion that men should be the one to approach their romantic interests is older than that.

4) I don't think that humans are disposed to such actions. In fact I doubt that it is as common in the animal kingdom as we believe it is. Ergo, I doubt that we'd have such a situation exist in the first place, nevermind it remaining permanent.
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Postby Scomagia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:33 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
New haven america wrote:You think you know about stuff like this when you really don't.


I do know this stuff. I do know about this. Oddly enough, being on the spectrum and experiencing issues with interpersonal relationships (including friendships) gives someone an insight into how they work.

Scomagia wrote:How is it a recipe for guarantee failure? Explain yourself.


People with high-functioning autism have difficulties with a number of things that are essential in relationships, namely things like empathy, reading body language, communication, and emotional intelligence. These can make relationships difficult with people who don't have high-functioning autism, and having a desire for such things like emotional support and understanding but not receiving it from their partner (as is expected in relationships) will often lead to problems, which cannot always be resolved.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:I mean he is right, but only at a "on paper" point of view.

On paper yes, it sounds hella bad, but in reality it just really depends a lot.

For instance, on paper yes, the odds of a fulfilling relationship sounds awful, but on the field this relationship stuff isn't quite as dire as it looks.


On paper statistics are studies from in the field with people who are and are not in relationships. There's a reason why people studying how it affects relationships point out the difficulties and the odds involved.

And two high functioning autistic people would be a guaranteed failure why? They'd both understand each other better than non-autistic people and likely wouldn't do the things (like excessive or prolonged hugging) that often make autistic people super uncomfortable. In a lot of ways a relationship between two autistic people of similar functionality would be better than the alternative.
Last edited by Scomagia on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:08 am

Scomagia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:On paper statistics are studies from in the field with people who are and are not in relationships. There's a reason why people studying how it affects relationships point out the difficulties and the odds involved.

And two high functioning autistic people would be a guaranteed failure why? They'd both understand each other better than non-autistic people and likely wouldn't do the things (like excessive or prolonged hugging) that often make autistic people super uncomfortable. In a lot of ways a relationship between two autistic people of similar functionality would be better than the alternative.


Of course a relationship between two similarly functioning autistic people could work. For that to happen, they also need to find each other physically and mentally attractive. They also need to both be single at the same time.
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Postby Uxupox » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:10 am

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Scomagia wrote:And two high functioning autistic people would be a guaranteed failure why? They'd both understand each other better than non-autistic people and likely wouldn't do the things (like excessive or prolonged hugging) that often make autistic people super uncomfortable. In a lot of ways a relationship between two autistic people of similar functionality would be better than the alternative.


Of course a relationship between two similarly functioning autistic people could work. For that to happen, they also need to find each other physically and mentally attractive. They also need to both be single at the same time.


no need to be single. be a homewrecker.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:33 am

Myrensis wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I am asserting as historical fact that humanity is perhaps 7,500 years old; certainly not much older than 8,000 years.


Out of curiosity, did Cain have some weird polyamorous relationship where he and Adam took turns having sex with Eve and making babies, or did he have to wait around in Nod until one of his baby sisters was old enough to breed?

The bible is delightfully nonspecific on this point.
Most scholars believe Cain's wife was eventually one of his nieces.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:08 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Scomagia wrote:And two high functioning autistic people would be a guaranteed failure why? They'd both understand each other better than non-autistic people and likely wouldn't do the things (like excessive or prolonged hugging) that often make autistic people super uncomfortable. In a lot of ways a relationship between two autistic people of similar functionality would be better than the alternative.


Of course a relationship between two similarly functioning autistic people could work. For that to happen, they also need to find each other physically and mentally attractive. They also need to both be single at the same time.

Yes. And? All relationships require those variables to be just so, autistic relationships are no different. In fact, I'd argue that two autistic people of similar functionality are more likely to meet the required variables than one autistic person and one non autistic person.
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:44 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Of course a relationship between two similarly functioning autistic people could work. For that to happen, they also need to find each other physically and mentally attractive. They also need to both be single at the same time.

Yes. And? All relationships require those variables to be just so, autistic relationships are no different. In fact, I'd argue that two autistic people of similar functionality are more likely to meet the required variables than one autistic person and one non autistic person.


I think what Costa Fierro was trying to get at was that a relationship between two high-functioning autistic people can't work if they remind each other of their biggest insecurities. Or if either thinks they can do better than whatever options they currently have.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:08 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Yes. And? All relationships require those variables to be just so, autistic relationships are no different. In fact, I'd argue that two autistic people of similar functionality are more likely to meet the required variables than one autistic person and one non autistic person.


I think what Costa Fierro was trying to get at was that a relationship between two high-functioning autistic people can't work if they remind each other of their biggest insecurities. Or if either thinks they can do better than whatever options they currently have.


Which again is true of any relationships. The issues with a brain disorder of any sort do make relationships more difficult, no one is arguing against that, but those difficulties are not insurmountable to a successful relationship as numerous folks can tell you.
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Postby Kaggeceria » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Because our culture sucks and too many women are entitled.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:25 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Yes. And? All relationships require those variables to be just so, autistic relationships are no different. In fact, I'd argue that two autistic people of similar functionality are more likely to meet the required variables than one autistic person and one non autistic person.


I think what Costa Fierro was trying to get at was that a relationship between two high-functioning autistic people can't work if they remind each other of their biggest insecurities. Or if either thinks they can do better than whatever options they currently have.

That's true of all relationships, though. It seems like Costa is simply manufacturing arguments against autistic relationships for no clear reason. There's nothing special about autistic relationships that make them more likely to fail than an autistic person being with a non autistic person. In fact, it would seem evident that the latter relationship has more reason to fail.
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Postby New haven america » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
I think what Costa Fierro was trying to get at was that a relationship between two high-functioning autistic people can't work if they remind each other of their biggest insecurities. Or if either thinks they can do better than whatever options they currently have.

That's true of all relationships, though. It seems like Costa is simply manufacturing arguments against autistic relationships for no clear reason. There's nothing special about autistic relationships that make them more likely to fail than an autistic person being with a non autistic person. In fact, it would seem evident that the latter relationship has more reason to fail.

Costa believes all MxF relationships are doomed to fail though, he's just targeting relationships with autistic people because the idea was brought up.
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Postby Albrenia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:47 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Myrensis wrote:
Out of curiosity, did Cain have some weird polyamorous relationship where he and Adam took turns having sex with Eve and making babies, or did he have to wait around in Nod until one of his baby sisters was old enough to breed?

The bible is delightfully nonspecific on this point.
Most scholars believe Cain's wife was eventually one of his nieces.


Eww.

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Postby Otira » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Myrensis wrote:
Out of curiosity, did Cain have some weird polyamorous relationship where he and Adam took turns having sex with Eve and making babies, or did he have to wait around in Nod until one of his baby sisters was old enough to breed?

The bible is delightfully nonspecific on this point.
Most scholars believe Cain's wife was eventually one of his nieces.

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Postby Scomagia » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:33 pm

New haven america wrote:
Scomagia wrote:That's true of all relationships, though. It seems like Costa is simply manufacturing arguments against autistic relationships for no clear reason. There's nothing special about autistic relationships that make them more likely to fail than an autistic person being with a non autistic person. In fact, it would seem evident that the latter relationship has more reason to fail.

Costa believes all MxF relationships are doomed to fail though, he's just targeting relationships with autistic people because the idea was brought up.

Well that's a pathetic and self defeating view of relationships. Worthless, really.
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Postby New haven america » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:26 pm

Scomagia wrote:
New haven america wrote:Costa believes all MxF relationships are doomed to fail though, he's just targeting relationships with autistic people because the idea was brought up.

Well that's a pathetic and self defeating view of relationships. Worthless, really.

He doesn't think so. He believe he's protecting himself and his possessions/money from the evil bloodsucking harpies known as "Women" who run this oppressive gynocentric society.

Let's just ignore the fact that he still lives with his mom...
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:15 am

New haven america wrote:He doesn't think so. He believe he's protecting himself and his possessions/money from the evil bloodsucking harpies known as "Women" who run this oppressive gynocentric society.


He is not wrong to be suspicious of women, if he feels that he doesn't need that complication in a certain stage of their life. The Shaolin temple for example, refuses to take in any women for training and requires their monks to take a vow of celibacy and to adhere to that. I figure that it must be for a good reason. Temptation distracts from what is most needed for discipline in their training towards perfection of mind and body.

Shaolin has 1,500+ years of knowledge available to them, supposedly the act of ejaculation does more to weaken the male body than losing 10 drops of blood.
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Postby Purgatio » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:33 am

Kaggeceria wrote:Because our culture sucks and too many women are entitled.


Women not wanting to suffer sexual harassment in professional spaces makes them 'entitled'? Yeah, those stuck up women, complaining about being slapped on the ass by their co-workers without their consent, so spoiled, right?
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:31 am

Saiwania wrote:
New haven america wrote:He doesn't think so. He believe he's protecting himself and his possessions/money from the evil bloodsucking harpies known as "Women" who run this oppressive gynocentric society.


He is not wrong to be suspicious of women, if he feels that he doesn't need that complication in a certain stage of their life. The Shaolin temple for example, refuses to take in any women for training and requires their monks to take a vow of celibacy and to adhere to that. I figure that it must be for a good reason. Temptation distracts from what is most needed for discipline in their training towards perfection of mind and body.

Shaolin has 1,500+ years of knowledge available to them, supposedly the act of ejaculation does more to weaken the male body than losing 10 drops of blood.

Losing ten drops of blood does little to weaken the male body.
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Postby Luminesa » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:46 am

Saiwania wrote:
New haven america wrote:He doesn't think so. He believe he's protecting himself and his possessions/money from the evil bloodsucking harpies known as "Women" who run this oppressive gynocentric society.


He is not wrong to be suspicious of women, if he feels that he doesn't need that complication in a certain stage of their life. The Shaolin temple for example, refuses to take in any women for training and requires their monks to take a vow of celibacy and to adhere to that. I figure that it must be for a good reason. Temptation distracts from what is most needed for discipline in their training towards perfection of mind and body.

Shaolin has 1,500+ years of knowledge available to them, supposedly the act of ejaculation does more to weaken the male body than losing 10 drops of blood.

...Whut.
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Postby Scomagia » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:38 pm

Saiwania wrote:
New haven america wrote:He doesn't think so. He believe he's protecting himself and his possessions/money from the evil bloodsucking harpies known as "Women" who run this oppressive gynocentric society.


He is not wrong to be suspicious of women, if he feels that he doesn't need that complication in a certain stage of their life. The Shaolin temple for example, refuses to take in any women for training and requires their monks to take a vow of celibacy and to adhere to that. I figure that it must be for a good reason. Temptation distracts from what is most needed for discipline in their training towards perfection of mind and body.

Shaolin has 1,500+ years of knowledge available to them, supposedly the act of ejaculation does more to weaken the male body than losing 10 drops of blood.

Your lack of contextual understanding for the Shaolin perspective is astounding. The influences on Shaolin thinking with regards to male energy you described are not rational but rather the result of Daoist thinking. The feminine is fertile, generative, and limitless. The masculine is structural, emergent from the feminine even as it is the counter balance to the feminine, and necessarily limited. Therefore, the masculine can be exhausted while the feminine is inexhaustible.

There are practical reasons for the admission of males exclusively. Combat is near universally the domain of men, especially in ancient times. Additionally, Shaolin and other monastic groups historically served more than just a religious role, they were also a repository for orphaned or unwanted males who, naturally, needed a structured and disciplined environment in order to avoid becoming elements of societal disruption.
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Postby Nioya » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:44 pm

I read a paper called “from front porch to back seat” by Beth bailey. It talks about how dating developed in the 20th century and the system of “calling” the preceded it. Upper class women had to have men speak to their parents first and then meet the woman. Dating was originally for lower class people. Men could work so they had the money to pay for entertainment. That’s the origin. It’s evolved overtime as a custom, to the point where some men deny women’s advances.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:29 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:Oddly enough some of us are parents of kids on the spectrum.


And therefore "well I'm a parent" trumps "I actually have it"? Do enlighten me, O Wise One.

And there are plenty of kids in the many programs my kid has gone to over the years and they have dates and relationships. Primarily I suppose because they are open about them.


"Plenty" obviously being a deliberately vague term.

It is kind of the same with autism, just because you have it, does not make you expert in how to deal with it.


It does. That pisses you off because it's something that you can't experience and therefore cannot lecture people whom you believe are "inexperienced". It's almost like I know more than you and you can't handle that.

So to sum up this argument succinctly: you don't know a Goddamn thing.
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