Conservation VS Herclivation

[Ethel mermania]

I have a book for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1493:_U ... us_Created

The "global homogenization" of crops is the result of anything, primarily the government, that prevents the supply from accurately reflecting the diversity of the demand.

What happened to using money to make choices?

[Costa Fierro]

Do you have any evidence that the consequences of introducing a new species are "almost always" negative?

There are entire countries that are evidence of this. Take New Zealand for example. Prior to colonisation by humans, the flora and fauna evolved in the absence of a wide variety of mammalian species that otherwise filled the kinds of roles that we'd expect. To the extent that the only native mammalian species that inhabited New Zealand outside of several species of pinnipeds along the coastline were three species of bats, one of which became extinct due to predation.

This meant that what niches that were usually filled by mammals in virtually every other landmass on the planet were filled by birds. There's a reason so many of New Zealand's endemic bird species is flightless: their habitat and their food was, predominantly, on the ground or in low foliage. And because of the lack of mammalian predators, these birds lack the defences, and the survival skills, to cope. Many species of bird went extinct not that long after the arrival of Maori, who brought with them dogs, pigs, and the worst culprit of them all, the Polynesian rat. The latter exploded in numbers due to the lack of predators and widely available food sources, which included the eggs and chicks of ground-dwelling birds. Europeans simply added onto the carnage with the introduction of animals such as cats, possums, and two more species of rats. The introduction of additional bird species also put pressure on local ecosystems and, coupled with the rampant deforestation and introduction of foreign species of flora, put significant pressure on native ecosystems and the flora and fauna that inhabited them.

It's therefore no surprise that the decline and extinction of many native species of flora and fauna can be primarily attributed to the introduction of foreign species, especially ones which, when introduced, immediately became the apex predator.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes, lionfish. Also known as dragonfish. They have taken over several areas of the Atlantic ocean (particularly Florida waters and in the Caribbean) and it's not endemic to them. This fish is native to the Pacific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterois#I ... _and_range

Is it really also known as dragonfish? The lionfish is venomous, so the situation is somewhat similar to that of the cane toad, which is poisonous. But it seems like that the grouper does eat the lionfish. The problem is that the grouper has been overfished. According to Wikipedia the main approach that is being used to deal with the lionfish is to encourage people to eat them. Evidently it tastes good.

My favorite fish is orange roughy, but I haven't eaten it in years because of overfishing. Evidently it used to be called "slime head", which doesn't sound very appetizing, so its name was changed by the US National Marine Fisheries Service. This worked... too well. Maybe they should rename the "lionfish"? I wonder which would be the best way to choose a new name........

Yes Xero, it is also known as dragonfish: https://a-z-animals.com/animals/lionfish/

[Auze]

I imagine one would have to be careful lest new species choke out the native flora and fauna via competition for the same resources.

In the case of the Tillandsias being introduced to Africa/Australia... the competition would be minimal because the preferred niches are largely unoccupied. But in other situations when a preferred niche already is largely occupied, here's one potential outcome...

How do reptiles evolve when another species invades their space? In the case of the Carolina anole (Anolis carolinensis) in Florida, its feet evolved to better climb higher in trees to avoid the invasive brown anole (Anolis sagrei). - John Virata

This is similar to how epiphytes grow on trees in order to avoid the fierce competition for ground space.

I am well familiar with how the Carolina anole (known as the Green anole) populations in Florida and South Georgia evolved to handle the brown anole (don't worry about the Carolina anole, the brown anole hasn't reached SC, and thus the anoles here continue to live in the same niche as always).

[Xerographica]

Do you have any evidence that the consequences of introducing a new species are "almost always" negative?

There are entire countries that are evidence of this. Take New Zealand for example. Prior to colonisation by humans, the flora and fauna evolved in the absence of a wide variety of mammalian species that otherwise filled the kinds of roles that we'd expect. To the extent that the only native mammalian species that inhabited New Zealand outside of several species of pinnipeds along the coastline were three species of bats, one of which became extinct due to predation.

This meant that what niches that were usually filled by mammals in virtually every other landmass on the planet were filled by birds. There's a reason so many of New Zealand's endemic bird species is flightless: their habitat and their food was, predominantly, on the ground or in low foliage. And because of the lack of mammalian predators, these birds lack the defences, and the survival skills, to cope. Many species of bird went extinct not that long after the arrival of Maori, who brought with them dogs, pigs, and the worst culprit of them all, the Polynesian rat. The latter exploded in numbers due to the lack of predators and widely available food sources, which included the eggs and chicks of ground-dwelling birds. Europeans simply added onto the carnage with the introduction of animals such as cats, possums, and two more species of rats. The introduction of additional bird species also put pressure on local ecosystems and, coupled with the rampant deforestation and introduction of foreign species of flora, put significant pressure on native ecosystems and the flora and fauna that inhabited them.

It's therefore no surprise that the decline and extinction of many native species of flora and fauna can be primarily attributed to the introduction of foreign species, especially ones which, when introduced, immediately became the apex predator.

You said that the worst culprit was the rat, but then you concluded by saying that the most damaging introduced foreign species are those that become apex predators. There's a problem with an ecosystem if a rat becomes the apex predator.

It's true that New Zealand birds lacked mammalian predators, but this doesn't mean that they lacked all predators. The moas, for example, were hunted by the Haast's eagle. I'm guessing that rats would be too small for this eagle to bother with, but there definitely should have been some predator on New Zealand that would have loved to hunt rats.

The only way that there can be too many deer is if there are too few wolves. My garden has too many aphids because there are too few ladybugs.

Anyways, citing examples really doesn't prove that the consequences of introducing a new species are "almost always" negative. And it's not like the Rhipsalis that was introduced to Africa is an apex predator. Most plants aren't apex predators. The same is true of animals.

[Xerographica]

Is it really also known as dragonfish? The lionfish is venomous, so the situation is somewhat similar to that of the cane toad, which is poisonous. But it seems like that the grouper does eat the lionfish. The problem is that the grouper has been overfished. According to Wikipedia the main approach that is being used to deal with the lionfish is to encourage people to eat them. Evidently it tastes good.

My favorite fish is orange roughy, but I haven't eaten it in years because of overfishing. Evidently it used to be called "slime head", which doesn't sound very appetizing, so its name was changed by the US National Marine Fisheries Service. This worked... too well. Maybe they should rename the "lionfish"? I wonder which would be the best way to choose a new name........

Yes Xero, it is also known as dragonfish: https://a-z-animals.com/animals/lionfish/

So are you going to update the Pterois wikipedia page?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Why is it that whenever I look at one of your ideologies, the only links I find are to blogs made by you?

[Alvecia]

Why is it that whenever I look at one of your ideologies, the only links I find are to blogs made by you?

Same reason they refuse to accept such ideas could ever be flawed I suppose.

[Xerographica]

Why is it that whenever I look at one of your ideologies, the only links I find are to blogs made by you?

Either I'm crazy, or I'm way ahead of the curve. In any case I like the part where you try and look stuff up.

[The Blaatschapen]

I saw raccoons in Berlin.

It brings for nice diversity among the roadkill

[Alvecia]

I saw raccoons in Berlin.

It brings for nice diversity among the roadkill

Must be nice. We only get birds and hedgehogs round here.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Why is it that whenever I look at one of your ideologies, the only links I find are to blogs made by you?

Either I'm crazy, or I'm way ahead of the curve.

You are definitely not ahead of the curve.

In any case I like the part where you try and look stuff up.

I literally just googled it.

[Xerographica]

The "global homogenization" of crops is the result of anything, primarily the government, that prevents the supply from accurately reflecting the diversity of the demand.

What happened to using money to make choices?

Yeah! Consumer choice is best with money, but it's not like birds have pockets. Kangaroos have pockets but I think they only use them for carrying babies.

[Xerographica]

Either I'm crazy, or I'm way ahead of the curve.

You are definitely not ahead of the curve.

In any case I like the part where you try and look stuff up.

I literally just googled it.

Some people don't even google things. I think only time can tell whether or not I'm ahead of the curve.

[Alvecia]

You are definitely not ahead of the curve.

I literally just googled it.

Some people don't even google things. I think only time can tell whether or not I'm ahead of the curve.

Already been 6 years. Hope you're patient.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes Xero, it is also known as dragonfish: https://a-z-animals.com/animals/lionfish/

So are you going to update the Pterois wikipedia page?

So how is this, one of the many names this fish goes by, relevant to the topic? This is an example of what introducing non-native species to an ecosystem can do.

[The Holy Therns]

You are definitely not ahead of the curve.

I literally just googled it.

Some people don't even google things. I think only time can tell whether or not I'm ahead of the curve.

Six years on this site alone, darling, I think it's told you very thoroughly.

[Xerographica]

Some people don't even google things. I think only time can tell whether or not I'm ahead of the curve.

Six years on this site alone, darling, I think it's told you very thoroughly.

So every curve is shorter than six years? Did you read the NY Times article about introducing kangaroos to other parts of the world?

[Xerographica]

Some people don't even google things. I think only time can tell whether or not I'm ahead of the curve.

Already been 6 years. Hope you're patient.

Around 7 years ago I sowed some orchid seeds on my tree and some germinated...

Symbiotic Orchid Germination 1a 008

The largest seedling is going to bloom for the very first time this year.

How many orchid seeds would you guess have germinated on trees in California?

[The Holy Therns]

Six years on this site alone, darling, I think it's told you very thoroughly.

So every curve is shorter than six years? Did you read the NY Times article about introducing kangaroos to other parts of the world?

That probably sounded smarter in your head than it came out.

[Xerographica]

So every curve is shorter than six years? Did you read the NY Times article about introducing kangaroos to other parts of the world?

That probably sounded smarter in your head than it came out.

I've always acknowledged that I'm terrible at articulating things. But I'm not sure how you think it's supposed to work when somebody is ahead of the curve. What do you think everybody else says? "Oh wow guy! Good job being so far ahead of the curve!" Nope. That really isn't what everybody says. Instead they say something like, "Hey guy you're super loony tunes! We all agree that you are NOT ahead of the curve."

So... about that kangaroo article...

[The Holy Therns]

That probably sounded smarter in your head than it came out.

I've always acknowledged that I'm terrible at articulating things. But I'm not sure how you think it's supposed to work when somebody is ahead of the curve. What do you think everybody else says? "Oh wow guy! Good job being so far ahead of the curve!" Nope. That really isn't what everybody says. Instead they say something like, "Hey guy you're super loony tunes! We all agree that you are NOT ahead of the curve."

I assume by now you should have realized after pretty much everyone has told you for years that the viewpoints you present on NationStates are very suboptimal.

So... about that kangaroo article...

No, I did not.

[Costa Fierro]

You said that the worst culprit was the rat, but then you concluded by saying that the most damaging introduced foreign species are those that become apex predators. There's a problem with an ecosystem if a rat becomes the apex predator.

There's not a problem with the ecosystem. There's a problem with the introduced mammals.

It's true that New Zealand birds lacked mammalian predators, but this doesn't mean that they lacked all predators. The moas, for example, were hunted by the Haast's eagle. I'm guessing that rats would be too small for this eagle to bother with, but there definitely should have been some predator on New Zealand that would have loved to hunt rats.

That's not what I said at all. Rats exploded in population because they lacked competition in terms of similar mammals, and certainly birds were never going to compete with rats. Furthermore, while there were predators in New Zealand, there were and are too few of them to be effective at keeping the rat population under control.

Anyways, citing examples really doesn't prove that the consequences of introducing a new species are "almost always" negative.

It does, that's literally the whole point of providing evidence.

[Albrenia]

Seems like too much of a risk for little reason. If it goes perfectly there's another species in a location, if it goes badly dozens could go extinct.

[Senkaku]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

please read this and revise your dumb ideas appropriately, xero