Can Queers be Socially Conservative?

[Borinsa]

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

[Threlizdun]

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

[Auzkhia]

We can all agree on this with nazism, but why can’t we take this stance on Islam and anarchism too? One wants to conquer the world and destroy all civil rights the other wants Everyman to be at war with every other man at all times.

You have no idea what Islam or anarchism actually are, if you believe those things.

I wonder if they'd take the same position in Christianity, but if they can distinguish Westboro Baptist Church, Fundamentalists and their ilk from mainstream Christians, then surely they could distinguish between the Islamic State and Wahhabis from mainstream Muslims.


Somebody already addressed anarchism, but anarchy =/= chaos, it just means no state and hierarchies but rather people organize society and governance decentralized and equally.

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

What about queer muslims? Are they also traitors? They, just like queer christians, have reconciled their faith with their sexuality and/or gender, therefore feel that Christianity or Islam isn't fundamentally opposed to the LGBTQ community. In the United States, a muslim is more likely to be supportive than a Christian.

Personally I think religion should just be a personal matter and have little to no bearing in the public sphere, I do not expect people to give up their faith. I see it as a cultural thing and do see the dangerous radicals trying to convert people, often by force, but let's not throw people under the bus?

[Nekokuni]

flirtation with Islam without me.

It isn't really a good idea to attack a homophobic religion when you advocate supporting a whole party of homophobic religious people. Glass houses and all.

[Thermodolia]

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

Oh bullshit. Take that intersectionality nonsense elsewhere

[Thermodolia]

flirtation with Islam without me.

It isn't really a good idea to attack a homophobic religion when you advocate supporting a whole party of homophobic religious people. Glass houses and all.

You can be conservative and not support the republicans ya know. Conservative Democrats exist ya know

[Ethel mermania]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Hyperbolically screech very much? People are individuals who act according to what is best for them, not as automatons to be told what is good or bad by some "leadership"

[Luminesa]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

This sounds like the argument of an abusive person toward their abused partner: “You’re worthless to me and you’re stupid, but if you go with anyone else then they’re going to treat you bad.” Really? This is how you cut a community apart, by making little groups and long lists of obligations in order for you to be “in”. If people are born into upper-middle-class and they share something in common with a working-class individual, then perhaps a spirit of solidarity, rather than resentment, could bring those people together.

[Thermodolia]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Oh get a life and a job

[Proctopeo]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Shit like this is why people turn to the conservatives, lol, or at least one of many factors

[Thermodolia]

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Shit like this is why people turn to the conservatives, lol, or at least one of many factors

The conservatives don’t give me crap for not voting a certain way. The so called “ tolerant liberals” however give me a lot of shit

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Threlizdun: "We are all an inclusive community guys! We're so open and tolerant"
Also Threlizdun: "If you disagree with my view you are a fucking traitor"

How does it feel to be so dissonant to your own ideas?

[Ludenza]

Gender identity and sexuality are facets of a human. Income brackets are facets of a human. Neurological/Psychological/Physiological status are facets of a human.

You cannot reasonably expect a gay brain surgeon to have less of an opinion than an unemployed veteran of color with a disability. They both have a voice, and their worth should be made on what they say, not because of their facets and brackets.

It would be a pretty dark scenario, if I was forced to believe in everything my political niche believed in, or be subject to shunning and harassment. The left isn't a hivemind, nor is the right. Just because someone doesn't meet all the checkmarks of your standards, doesn't make a person less of a human, deserving of the understanding that they have differences in opinion and thought.

This is freedom to live the life you want to live. Gay and transgendered people are allowed to express ideology according to the situation now, rather than being forced into a single political sect, in order to even have a voice.

[Uiiop]

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Threlizdun: "We are all an inclusive community guys! We're so open and tolerant"
Also Threlizdun: "If you disagree with my view you are a fucking traitor"

How does it feel to be so dissonant to your own ideas?

That view that's being disagreed with is of course "Inclusivity and tolerance is wrong".
That's not what one can call a massive dissonance.
There are issues but that ain't it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

This sounds like the argument of an abusive person toward their abused partner: “You’re worthless to me and you’re stupid, but if you go with anyone else then they’re going to treat you bad.” Really? This is how you cut a community apart, by making little groups and long lists of obligations in order for you to be “in”. If people are born into upper-middle-class and they share something in common with a working-class individual, then perhaps a spirit of solidarity, rather than resentment, could bring those people together.

It's worse than that.

See, an abusive partner does it because they want control. And they want control because it feels good to have that sort of power over a person's destiny to do them whatever you want them to do for you: the perfect partner.

This isn't even that, this is just plain spite of people within the LGBT community who disagree with them. "It's gonna be my way or the hard way" one-mindism.

It doesn't even have the same sort of horrifying consequences an abusive relationship can have. It's just mildly amusing to see someone who claims to be for equality hysterically reject their own precepts so hard when confronted with a difference of opinion, no matter how respectful that difference is delivered.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Welp. Send a rescue dive team; another one's off the deep end.

[Hammer Britannia]

Can a Muslim be socially liberal?
Can a Jew be socialist?

Yes, they can. To say that a Muslim can't be liberal because all Muslims are oppressive, that a socialist can't be Jewish because Jews are greedy, that all liberals hate Muslims, or even that all socialists are against Judaism would be a poor strawman at best

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I guess I’m a traitor then,
You can enjoy your intersectionality, safe spaces, speech policing, and flirtation with Islam without me.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Yeah, I'm not going to bend on my morals just because of oppression Olympics: the ideology.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Threlizdun: "We are all an inclusive community guys! We're so open and tolerant"
Also Threlizdun: "If you disagree with my view you are a fucking traitor"

How does it feel to be so dissonant to your own ideas?

That view that's being disagreed with is of course "Inclusivity and tolerance is wrong".
That's not what one can call a massive dissonance.
There are issues but that ain't it.

Of course it is a dissonance.

See, I don't claim to be tolerant, or inclusive, but that's because I really don't care to be even remotely tolerant or inclusive of people who are dickheads to me or my loved ones.

If you are going to say you include Muslims and Christian gay men and women, you are going to have to deal with the inevitable fact that their opinions are going to be more conservative, because they have reconciled their faith with their identity.

If you can't deal with this fact, don't claim you are trying to include them into your little identity cabal, because that's all it is at that point.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Can a Muslim be socially liberal?
Can a Jew be socialist?

Yes, they can. To say that a Muslim can't be liberal because all Muslims are oppressive, that a socialist can't be Jewish because Jews are greedy, that all liberals hate Muslims, or even that all socialists are against Judaism would be a poor strawman at best

A Muslim can't be liberal in the same way a Christian can't be, but that has nothing to do with Muslims or Christians being oppressive or not.

Muslims and Christians are adhering to a religious tradition, so by default they cannot be liberal in the sense of the word because they are not saying anything differently than their faith would say if applied consistently.

[Uiiop]

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Yeah, I'm not going to bend on my morals just because of oppression Olympics: the ideology.

The fact there wasn't any ranking in her views kinda makes her ideology not that.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Yeah, I'm not going to bend on my morals just because of oppression Olympics: the ideology.

The fact there wasn't any ranking in her views kinda makes her ideology not that.

Nah.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There's also the fact that if you include immigrants, they come from very conservative backgrounds, so while they might be liberal in LGBT rights and might be confounded with liberalism because they have come out, they still are individuals, and they are going to be far more conservative than your white, middle-class suburbanite/urban dweller.

To suggest that you can reconcile this with inclusion when someone is saying "if you don't think like me you are a traitor to the community" is laughable.

[Threlizdun]

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

Oh bullshit. Take that intersectionality nonsense elsewhere

It's nonsense to say that historically queer people of color, trans people. and lower class queer folk have generally been shafted in the gay rights movement?

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

Hyperbolically screech very much? People are individuals who act according to what is best for them, not as automatons to be told what is good or bad by some "leadership"

It's hardly a leadership telling people to do this. If anything, the queer "leadership" from groups like the HRC and other liberal nonprofits that told us to just be patient on discrimination on housing, employment, and banking, or the massive rates of homelessness, assault, and murder of queer and trans people of color while they focused nearly all the funding and political pressure on marriage equality. It's 2018 and life for queer and trans people of color still sucks. Marriage equality was significant when it came to accessing healthcare to those who could already afford it, which was primarily upper-middle to upper class white cis gay men and women, but it hasn't done much to improve access to healthcare for queer and trans people of color. These issues matter. Recognizing the significant difference race, class, gender, and ability make when discussing the experiences of the queer community is vital.

Sorry if my tone isn't to your liking. I'm just a bit too preoccupied with the fact that many of my trans friends are homeless, most of us have been assaulted, and we're all generally terrified of the fact that murders and hate crimes against us are on the rise. Meanwhile, TERFS and other transphobes are actively trying to kick us out of the very spaces we helped build. So yeah, I'm kind of pissed at complacent white able-bodied cisgender gay men and women who aren't willing to stick up for us or other members of our community in our time of need when we were there for them in the past.

Gladly. The queer community has always included people of color, women, transgender, nonbinary people, lower class people, indigenous people, immigrants, and disabled people. Those who prioritize only the rights and experiences of the most privileged subset of the queer community at the expense of all others frankly don't have a place in our community. Just don't be surprised when the other conservatives sell you out and continue to hate you. They always do.

This sounds like the argument of an abusive person toward their abused partner: “You’re worthless to me and you’re stupid, but if you go with anyone else then they’re going to treat you bad.” Really? This is how you cut a community apart, by making little groups and long lists of obligations in order for you to be “in”. If people are born into upper-middle-class and they share something in common with a working-class individual, then perhaps a spirit of solidarity, rather than resentment, could bring those people together.

It's abusive to act like you're a part of our community when you actively preserve policies that get members of our community killed. White queers that don't support the fight against police brutality, mass incarceration, and discrimination against queer people of color are a problem. Cisgender queers that seek to exclude trans people from queer spaces, police our identities, and ignore the systemic discrimination we face are a problem. Islamaphobic queers like Borinsa that co-opt queer struggles to try to victimize immigrants and Muslim populations are a problem.

I have the backs of my fellows in the queer community, but if they don't have my back in my struggles, or the backs of other members of our community in their struggles, then what even makes us a community? Intersectionality isn't a buzzword. It's understanding that the differences in our community mean a damn. It's noting that queer and trans people of color, lower class queer people, and disabled queer people fought and died for the rights that financially secure white able-bodied cisgender gay men and women enjoy today, yet they still have gotten so little out of the struggle. It's recognizing that those who benefit from their sacrifices while refusing to offer anything in return are abusing their privilege and are disconnected from the ongoing struggle to see justice for all members of our community. If that's divisive then fine. Those who are unwilling to fight for the community aren't doing anything for us anyways.

[Nekokuni]

Queer folk can be socially conservative. We just call them traitors. It's usually upper-middle class cisgender white gay men and women who've got their's already from the struggles of the collective queer rights/liberation movement and aren't interested in helping anyone else in the community. They're frankly worse than homophobic and transphobic cishet people at times.

Oh bullshit. Take that intersectionality nonsense elsewhere

While she could have phrased it a lot better, Threlizdun does make a good point that a lot of socially conservative queer people (e.g. Caitlyn Jenner) are usually well off and less likely to suffer from the homophobic and transphobic policies their candidates put in place. This is a serious issue in the trans community, where a lot of post-op transwomen who can pass and have successfully integrated look down on and attack transwomen who can't pass or don't conform to conservative society (e.g. Blaire “Translesbians are men” White).