Homosexuality and Culture

[The Empire of Pretantia]

-other content snipped-

Side note: Saudi Arabia is not a third-world country. In fact, most of the UAE are first-world countries.

Actually, it is:

>Iran a first-world country

Waaaaaaaaaa

[Augustus Legions]

pray the the gay away

[Mardla]

Apologies if this has already been noted but:

(Image)

Slash fuckin thread I'd think

Britney Spears!

[The Anime Army]

Actually, it is:

>Iran a first-world country

Waaaaaaaaaa

Materially poor, but Spiritually rich.

[Valrifell]

>Iran a first-world country

Waaaaaaaaaa

Materially poor, but Spiritually rich.

Worth noting that the original designation for first world/third world were people emphatically supporting the US in the Cold War with third worlders sitting somewhere between or outside the US first world and Soviet second world (colored in red on that map).

Also other maps have Iran colored as third world so I guess it's a point of contention? Either way it's not a steadfast measure of development.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

It doesn't now, but during around the years 800 to the 19th century, pederastic poetry, artwork etc was found from spain to india, the pederasty ranged from simple chaste adoration of young males, to the more extreme forced usage of unwilling youths. Sodomy was always considered a sin, but other aspects of homosexual relations were not.

The poet, Hasrat Mohani wrote "All love is unconditionally good" after all
the object of desire, Isqh (passion) could easily be a young and beardless beautiful boy as easily as it could have been a woman, as was prominent in literature at the time.

I'm not talking about history, I'm talking about Al-Islam.

[Mardla]

It doesn't now, but during around the years 800 to the 19th century, pederastic poetry, artwork etc was found from spain to india, the pederasty ranged from simple chaste adoration of young males, to the more extreme forced usage of unwilling youths. Sodomy was always considered a sin, but other aspects of homosexual relations were not.

The poet, Hasrat Mohani wrote "All love is unconditionally good" after all
the object of desire, Isqh (passion) could easily be a young and beardless beautiful boy as easily as it could have been a woman, as was prominent in literature at the time.

I'm not talking about history, I'm talking about Al-Islam.

Which has a history. A very shitty one

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm not talking about history, I'm talking about Al-Islam.

Which has a history.

I'm talking about the religion itself, not the history.

[Mardla]

Which has a history.

I'm talking about the religion itself, not the history.

The religion is not separate from its history any more than a person is separate from his history, or a people is separate from their history

[The South Falls]

Apologies if this has already been noted but:

(Image)

Slash fuckin thread I'd think

Bismillah no, we will not let this go!

[Neo Azati]

I've never heard of that being used as a legal defence anywhere except in the Middle East. That seems absurd that that would be going on in a first world country.

On your point about, bathrooms, prisons and non-discrimination laws, it appears we've reached a fundamental problem. In your eyes, refusing to recognize a trans person as the gender they identify as, and instead recognizing them as the gender they were assigned at birth, is functionally the same as endorsing their death. Some people don't think trans people are the gender they identify as, that's not the same as not thinking trans people are people.

Gay and trans panic defenses in recent history:
Daniel Spencer (2018)
Jennifer Laude (2014)
Islan Nettles (2013)
Gwen Araujo (2003)

Also, by forcing trans people into the incorrect bathrooms, prisons, and so on, you are putting us into a situation that increases our likelihood of being sexually assaulted or murdered. So yes, those laws that refuse to recognize who we are are, indirectly, endorsing rape and murder of us.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm talking about the religion itself, not the history.

The religion is not separate from its history any more than a person is separate from his history, or a people is separate from their history

You don't understand what I'm saying.
I'm talking about the religion. Al-Islam. It's defined by the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not by history.

[Mardla]

The religion is not separate from its history any more than a person is separate from his history, or a people is separate from their history

You don't understand what I'm saying.
I'm talking about the religion. Al-Islam. It's defined by the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not by history.

This is like saying, "I am talking about the U.S. as defined by its Constitution, not by its history."

[Darussalam]

I'm talking about the religion itself, not the history.

The religion is not separate from its history any more than a person is separate from his history, or a people is separate from their history

Not if you regard the religion as divinely-ordained and humans as flawed practitioners or outright corrupters of divine ordination.

"Historical context" in Islam stopped right when the Prophet died. Further religious modifications tend to be justified not as development, but as continuation of the Prophet's traditions. To insinuate that Islam develops, modifies, or changes ever the slightest after the Prophet's death is completely blasphemous! Hence the difficulty faced by many Muslim reformists.

[Mardla]

The religion is not separate from its history any more than a person is separate from his history, or a people is separate from their history

Not if you regard the religion as divinely-ordained and humans as flawed practitioners or outright corrupters of divine ordination.

"Historical context" in Islam stopped right when the Prophet died. Further religious modifications tend to be justified not as development, but as continuation of the Prophet's traditions. To insinuate that Islam develops, modifies, or changes ever the slightest after the Prophet's death is completely blasphemous! Hence the difficulty faced by many Muslim reformists.

Wahhabism is the Muslim Reformation

[Darussalam]

Also, pederasty has always been a vice among orthodox Muslim scholars. Ibn Taymiyya, for example, one of the most renowned Muslim scholars and the first one who approved declaration of jihad against fellow self-professed Muslims (against Islamized Mongols, in this case), denounced spiritual pederasty as a form of heresy.

I think distinction between Islamicate and Islamic tradition is important here. Islamic legal system has never been friendly on homosexuals, traditional punishments advocated range from burning, being pushed off from height, etc. But revealed preference in Muslim societies adjusted nonetheless, adjusting from honor culture and gender segregation in order to meet sexual needs - hence bacha bazi etc.

Transsexuals actually had a fairly interesting position in that they were actually mentioned in the Prophet's time not always in the context of punishment, but as actually an acknowledged group of individuals who are allowed to live relatively peacefully.

Obligatory mention of the well-known joke based on a hadith (which validity is unknown to me) that claims that when a man mounts another man, "the Throne of God shakes"

[Albrenia]

Religions change over time, like most other things.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

pre-modern Islam to name a few cultures. =P

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

Another excellent reason to not allow for a theocracy to come to power.

[Darussalam]

Not if you regard the religion as divinely-ordained and humans as flawed practitioners or outright corrupters of divine ordination.

"Historical context" in Islam stopped right when the Prophet died. Further religious modifications tend to be justified not as development, but as continuation of the Prophet's traditions. To insinuate that Islam develops, modifies, or changes ever the slightest after the Prophet's death is completely blasphemous! Hence the difficulty faced by many Muslim reformists.

Wahhabism is the Muslim Reformation

And you can see that the Wahhabis unilaterally cut 14-centuries-old traditions, skipping straight to the Prophet's era and claiming to profess authentic traditions from said era.

[Mardla]

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

Another excellent reason to not allow for a theocracy to come to power.

I doubt the U.S. is in danger of an Islamic take over, or ever will be. Europe, however

[Darussalam]

Religions change over time, like most other things.

That would be a blasphemous assertion to many Muslims. The last verse revealed to the Prophet spoke about how the religion has been, at last, perfected. For it to develop further would imply that it was imperfect by the time of the Prophet's death.

[Mardla]

Wahhabism is the Muslim Reformation

And you can see that the Wahhabis unilaterally cut 14-centuries-old traditions, skipping straight to the Prophet's era and claiming to profess authentic traditions from said era.

Like I said

[Darussalam]

And you can see that the Wahhabis unilaterally cut 14-centuries-old traditions, skipping straight to the Prophet's era and claiming to profess authentic traditions from said era.

Like I said

Well that doesn't contradict anything I said, then.

[Uxupox]

Religions change over time, like most other things.

"Change". Provide a more in-depth explanation.

[Albrenia]

Religions change over time, like most other things.

"Change". Provide a more in-depth explanation.

Do not remain exactly the same. Translations, alterations, interpretations, change of focus and so on.