Homosexuality and Culture

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, it's pretty accurate. It's a reflection of beliefs and tendencies held by society.

Take away art and see what sort of culture you’re left with.

The attitudes towards various subjects held by a society. Boom, done, culture without art.

[Mardla]

SCOTUS could very well repeal the homosexual marriage mandate. In which case DOMA is back, baby!

Hooray for freedom and liber.... oh wait.

Oh wait, polygamy isn't legal either! What a jackboot!

[Internationalist Bastard]

Except you LOST. Mainstream society is cool with gay people and even conservatives are mostly over it outside of fundie Christian circles. Notice how you don't hear Republicans talk about marriage equality anymore?

The big, gay rainbow won and homophobia is extremely offputting these days even among much of the political right.

Even my Trump voting family members are cool with gay people. Trump himself doesn't even give a damn.

SCOTUS could very well repeal the homosexual marriage mandate. In which case DOMA is back, baby!

Wait, what is my marriage constituted as?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Hooray for freedom and liber.... oh wait.

Oh wait, polygamy isn't legal either! What a jackboot!

Illegalize marriage

[Ifreann]

Us queers have produced absolutely nothing for culture, except for music, theater, literature, poetry, dance, painting, cinema, television, performance art, comedy, philosophy, science, and dedicated political activism. You know, meaningless, unimportant stuff.

Meaningless, unimportant, and gay. *nods*

---

Baron von Steufen

At Valley Forge, he began close relationships with Benjamin Walker and William North, then both military officers in their 20s, which are assumed by many to have been rivals.

Von Steuben formally adopted Walker and North and made them his heirs.[31] A third young man, John W. Mulligan Jr. (1774–1862), also considered himself one of Steuben's "sons"; he inherited Von Steuben's vast library, collection of maps and $2,500 in cash.

Damn, sounds like von Steuben was a polyamorous daddy.

That's Baron Daddy to you.

[Aboveland]

Why not? If a black author makes a story for kids about a talking mouse or something, is it related to his race?

Because people don’t exist in a vacuum separate from society. If I write a book it’s going to be informed by my life’s experiences. And that includes being a gay Jew.
And so it would fitting that, if my book were to be positively received, that it would be included in lists of cultural works from the gay and Jewish communities. Even if the book had nothing to do with overtly gay or Jewish themes, the work is a product of someone intrinsically tied to both of those groups.

Hell, I’m also Canadian. This hypothetical book could then be considered an example of modern Canadian literature, even if I no longer live there and the book isn’t specially about Canada.

People, and the art they create, can’t easily be separated. A book, music, or movie made by a black man is informed by his existence as a black man, even if the work in question doesn’t appear to touch on the issue of race.

But a) I never said gay people have never contributed to culture, and in fact said the opposite, and b), as I and another user have already pointed out, the argument the thread is based around is that homosexuality has never contributed to culture, not that gay people haven't. Your quote in bold is missing the point of the thread. If you'd read my posts entirely (which isn't too much of an arduous task, because they're rarely more than a few sentences long) you'd have understood what I meant.

If that is your point it’s a bit of a misleading one, isn’t it? There are a few layers to unpack, so let’s get to it.

What has homosexuality contributed? I’d say that, at a base level, sexuality in general isn’t really central to culture. Be it heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or anything else.
All these words indicate who a person is attracted to sexually. Who you, I, or anyone else is attracted to has no bearing on our ability to create “culture.”
Our skills, or lack thereof, in the fields of writing, painting, signing, songwriting, etc... aren’t tied to who we are attracted to.
So to single out homosexuality seems to be a case of intentionally misleading a conversation to get a desired result.

Building off of that we’re going to have to circle back to the admission on your part that homosexual individuals have contributed to culture and science.
Ok. So we’re in agreement. So what’s the point of intentionally trying to mislead people on a question concerning homosexuality and its “contributions” to culture? Again, homosexuality as a concept is merely a matter of sexual attraction.
So are you, by attempting to mislead the discussion to unfairly tar and feather “homosexuality” as a concept, arguing that despite contributions from homosexual people the idea of homosexuality is somehow not worthy of merit?

If that’s not your goal, then I need to ask what the point of this example of mental gymnastics is, exactly.

First off, I'm not tarring or feathering anything. I don't know how else to express sexuality as, if not as a concept or a thing.

It would be wrong to claim that sexuality, period, has no effects or contributions to culture as a whole. The culture around me, culture not being limited to works of art, revolves around Catholicism. It's culturally significant to the people around me that in a family the man is the one who works, the woman is the one who cooks and cares for kids, and the boys grow up to be attractive to girls to reproduce. There's an element of sexuality to every culture: how Muslim cultures entirely shun homosexuality, heterosexuality being the norm, how the progress of western culture has seen homosexuality gain a more equal level of validity to heterosexuality, etc. Sexuality has always been, and is, significant to culture, be it in sculptures, music, or the expected mannerisms and ways of interaction between members of a culture. Claiming sexuality isn't important to a culture is flawed; in addition, culture doesn't always have to be created, and it isn't always tangible. One doesn't create a way of saying hi, or a social convention of holding open a door for someone or thanking strangers in public.

I don't know if I don't get it, or if your argument is silly.

My argument is you cannot separate a person from their life experiences, and therefore you cannot separate anything they contribute to “culture” from who they are and the experiences that informed said contribution.

“What has homosexuality contributed?”
“Well artists and scholars who lived as homosexuals either publicly or privately and thus had life experiences informed by being gay contributed this, that, and the other thing.”
“Oh ok.”

And yet, you said "Our skills, or lack thereof, in the fields of writing, painting, signing, songwriting, etc... aren’t tied to who we are attracted to." The basis of what you're saying is fundamentally different to what I'm saying. It's not compulsory for a person to have to express their own ideas or experiences in their works of art which are considered culture. If I so wanted to, I could research a war in Africa, create a character that I imagine would participate in said war, and write a story about him living through that war only using my research as a basis, from the comfort of my peaceful home. That story would be significant as a work made by a gay person, made by a South American person, made by a white person, and would contribute to culture, all the while not contributing to culture through my homosexuality, or nationality, or race, but rather as a work of literature based on a black, African and hypothetically straight character.

[Mardla]

SCOTUS could very well repeal the homosexual marriage mandate. In which case DOMA is back, baby!

Wait, what is my marriage constituted as?

Since you take pride in pornographic exhibitionism, I can't say I really consider your marriage meaningful. Not to be hurtful, but I'm sure you see my point.

[Valgora]

Yeaaaah... No, that's actually massively wrong.

No, it's pretty accurate. It's a reflection of beliefs and tendencies held by society.

Art ain't less important than other aspects of culture.
Art is very important to culture.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Wait, what is my marriage constituted as?

Since you take pride in pornographic exhibitionism, I can't say I really consider your marriage meaningful. Not to be hurtful, but I'm sure you see my point.

I more meant because I’m trans

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

SCOTUS could very well repeal the homosexual marriage mandate. In which case DOMA is back, baby!

Someone would have to suffer actual harm as a direct result of same-sex marriage being legal and demonstrate such in a court of law before even remotely getting close to getting to SCOTUS, and the likelihood of that happening is slim to none since same-sex marriage affects literally no one except for same-sex couples getting married.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, it's pretty accurate. It's a reflection of beliefs and tendencies held by society.

Art ain't less important than other aspects of culture.
Art is very important to culture.

Actually, it is less important, considering it is not art that drives cultural conflict but differing viewpoints.

[Valgora]

SCOTUS could very well repeal the homosexual marriage mandate. In which case DOMA is back, baby!

Someone would have to suffer actual harm as a direct result of same-sex marriage being legal and demonstrate such in a court of law before even remotely getting close to getting to SCOTUS, and the likelihood of that happening is slim to none since same-sex marriage affects literally no one except for same-sex couples getting married.

Some people would like to claim that their faith is being harmed.

[Mardla]

Since you take pride in pornographic exhibitionism, I can't say I really consider your marriage meaningful. Not to be hurtful, but I'm sure you see my point.

I more meant because I’m trans

That's almost a lessor concern. I am personally very torn about transfolk, battle between my head and my heart, though my head is right.

[Valgora]

Art ain't less important than other aspects of culture.
Art is very important to culture.

Actually, it is less important, considering it is not art that drives cultural conflict but differing viewpoints.

No. Art (which I'm including music) is very important to culture.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Actually, it is less important, considering it is not art that drives cultural conflict but differing viewpoints.

No. Art (which I'm including music) is very important to culture.

Less so than other aspects because it is a superficial feature of culture.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I more meant because I’m trans

That's almost a lessor concern. I am personally very torn about transfolk, battle between my head and my heart, though my head is right.

Well the question is me being married to a man a gay marriage?

[The New California Republic]

Someone would have to suffer actual harm as a direct result of same-sex marriage being legal and demonstrate such in a court of law before even remotely getting close to getting to SCOTUS, and the likelihood of that happening is slim to none since same-sex marriage affects literally no one except for same-sex couples getting married.

Some people would like to claim that their faith is being harmed.

I'm not sure that such a case would make it all the way up to SCOTUS.

[Valrifell]

Some people would like to claim that their faith is being harmed.

I'm not sure that such a case would make it all the way up to SCOTUS.

You just need enough money to appeal it all the way there.

[Mardla]

That's almost a lessor concern. I am personally very torn about transfolk, battle between my head and my heart, though my head is right.

Well the question is me being married to a man a gay marriage?

I think currently the Federal Government recognizes sex changes, but I don't know

[Mardla]

I'm not sure that such a case would make it all the way up to SCOTUS.

You just need enough money to appeal it all the way there.

A state government could appeal it

[Internationalist Bastard]

Well the question is me being married to a man a gay marriage?

I think currently the Federal Government recognizes sex changes, but I don't know

Neat

[Valgora]

No. Art (which I'm including music) is very important to culture.

Less so than other aspects because it is a superficial feature of culture.

If we look at art as " physical expression of creativity found in human societies and cultures", you are saying that literature, performance arts, and visual arts are nothing more than a superficial feature of culture and is therefore less important.
Which is wrong. You don't really have much of a culture if you don't have art because those are all important to culture.

[The New California Republic]

I'm not sure that such a case would make it all the way up to SCOTUS.

You just need enough money to appeal it all the way there.

But even then I am struggling to think of a specific set of circumstances that could lead to such a case arising.

[Prydania]

And yet, you said "Our skills, or lack thereof, in the fields of writing, painting, signing, songwriting, etc... aren’t tied to who we are attracted to."

Homosexuality has no bearing on our ability to create art. Because all homosexual means is "attracted to the same sex." Someone's ability to create art isn't dependent on that. Same with heterosexuality, really.

That said? Someone's life as a homosexual in a heteronormative society will certainly inform their art. Their homosexuality won't inform their skills in creating it, but content certainly will be influenced by lived experiences.

[Mardla]

You just need enough money to appeal it all the way there.

But even then I am struggling to think of a specific set of circumstances that could lead to such a case arising.

A state government stops granting gay marriage