LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Ostroeuropa]

So, I've been doing some thinking, and for a communist, i'm pretty centrist. sometimes.

To you on the other hand, I'm a democratic socialist.

[Torrocca]

Or, better yet, a person (not directed toward anyone here <3) could just not be a spineless, cowardly opportunist fuckhead like Fascists generally are and join a resistance movement against them instead, regardless of whether the fuck or not if society's on the path to or guaranteed to become Fascist.

Nah. I'll stick on the sidelines pointing out you're all driving me to drink.

Holy kek, a fucking buck-passing analogy in the wild. "It's your fault that I do bad things!" fucking lmao.

[West Leas Oros 2]

So, I've been doing some thinking, and for a communist, i'm pretty centrist. sometimes.

To you on the other hand, I'm a democratic socialist.

Aren't you a National Syndicalist?

[Ostroeuropa]

Nah. I'll stick on the sidelines pointing out you're all driving me to drink.

Holy kek, a fucking buck-passing analogy in the wild. "It's your fault that I do bad things!" fucking lmao.

You don't seem to understand the dynamic i'm alluding to nor do I expect you to, nor do I expect if you did you would honestly represent it. Self-defense is the aggressors fault, nor the victims, and that doesn't change if the aggressor is gaslighting you constantly and denying what they are doing and demanding peace and calling you evil for considering war. You cannot force someone to change their minds if they are intent on being your enemy and doing injustice to you merely because "Peace would be better".

To you on the other hand, I'm a democratic socialist.

Aren't you a National Syndicalist?

A nationalist and a syndicalist. Nationalist within the context of neo-imperialism and my belief it can help us same as it helped against imperialism 1.0, as well as belief in democratic sovereignty.

[Torrocca]

Here by the way is what Torocca ignores and snips out of the quote in their relentless quest to be a detriment to the conversation:

. Supporting neoliberalism means supporting societal collapse and fascist takeover. "I'd rather be a fascist in a country that still has an economy and is driven slightly less mental by neoliberal gaslighting on the topics of race, sex, and class, than one driven to utter raving insanity by their bullshit and in total poverty from all the wealth being siphoned off to the wealthy who then bugger off".

Neoliberalism is just fascism after an intermediary period of gaslighting, wealth transfer and loss, and escalating tensions to make the eventual fascism even worse. Plenty of folk act like fascisms are all equal. They aint. You've got
"Get the gas chambers ready Hans"
all the way through to;
"Let's fire on these protestors til they go home then ban some books."

Or if you prefer;
"I'd rather be a Mussolini supporter than a Weimarist."
"You don't have to be either."

Quoted from some Germans, 1932.

The context is also;
"Would you rather be a neoliberal, or a fascist.".

And, if you gave half an ounce of effort to read my original post, you'd've understood that I kept it within the frame of the original context, despite cutting the parts irrelevant to my argument, by asserting a third choice.

[Proctopeo]

>this post

Milton Friedman was a bourgeois economist who was wrong on almost everything. He also backed US imperialism because "muh freedumz" or some stupid shit.


It does though. If you were to travel back in time and vote for him, you'd be voting for slavery. You can like his economic policies but still not ever want to vote for him, but that still means you like slavery.


>implying Pinoshit's economic 'reform' wasn't mass murder

By approving of Pinoshit's economic policy you imply that it was only possible by establishing a dictatorship to remove popular and democratically elected president Allende. As soon as you realize that most people do not like neoliberalism and that it won't ever be voted or voluntarily installed in if the people know what they are voting for, you will become a fascist.

Hilariously enough, I'd rather become a fascist than a neoliberal.

I'd rather be a neoliberal, personally.

[Ostroeuropa]

Hilariously enough, I'd rather become a fascist than a neoliberal.

I'd rather be a neoliberal, personally.

The rise of the far-right is occurring under neoliberal and progressive hegenomy and appears to be escalating in intensity.

[Torrocca]

Holy kek, a fucking buck-passing analogy in the wild. "It's your fault that I do bad things!" fucking lmao.

You don't seem to understand the dynamic i'm alluding to nor do I expect you to, nor do I expect if you did you would honestly represent it. Self-defense is the aggressors fault, nor the victims, and that doesn't change if the aggressor is gaslighting you constantly and denying what they are doing and demanding peace and calling you evil for considering war. You cannot force someone to change their minds if they are intent on being your enemy and doing injustice to you merely because "Peace would be better".

TIL'd that self-defense = opportunistically siding with Fascists against all logic and reason when it looks like they're bound to win because some internet Communists said some mean things about your already-existing pro-Fascist tendencies

[Ostroeuropa]

And, if you gave half an ounce of effort to read my original post, you'd've understood that I kept it within the frame of the original context, despite cutting the parts irrelevant to my argument, by asserting a third choice.

"If the question was different, the answer would be different!"

[Proctopeo]

I'd rather be a neoliberal, personally.

The rise of the far-right is occurring under neoliberal and progressive hegenomy and appears to be escalating in intensity.

Economically, I'm already pretty much there, just perhaps with some extra laissez-faire capitalism.
Socially I'm quite a ways off from both options, as both have a hard-on for authoritarianism (albeit in differing intensities).

You don't seem to understand the dynamic i'm alluding to nor do I expect you to, nor do I expect if you did you would honestly represent it. Self-defense is the aggressors fault, nor the victims, and that doesn't change if the aggressor is gaslighting you constantly and denying what they are doing and demanding peace and calling you evil for considering war. You cannot force someone to change their minds if they are intent on being your enemy and doing injustice to you merely because "Peace would be better".

TIL'd that self-defense = opportunistically siding with Fascists against all logic and reason when it looks like they're bound to win because some internet Communists said some mean things about your already-existing pro-Fascist tendencies

Frankly you're both being completely fucking stupid about this whole thing and really need to pretend it never even happened.

[Torrocca]

And, if you gave half an ounce of effort to read my original post, you'd've understood that I kept it within the frame of the original context, despite cutting the parts irrelevant to my argument, by asserting a third choice.

"If the question was different, the answer would be different!"

The question assumes (rather asininely, at that) the fucking impossibility of alternative choices when you and I both know that's unquestionably unrealistically true.

Regardless of that, your whining just now entirely hinged on my post ignoring context when it clearly didn't.

[Ostroeuropa]

You don't seem to understand the dynamic i'm alluding to nor do I expect you to, nor do I expect if you did you would honestly represent it. Self-defense is the aggressors fault, nor the victims, and that doesn't change if the aggressor is gaslighting you constantly and denying what they are doing and demanding peace and calling you evil for considering war. You cannot force someone to change their minds if they are intent on being your enemy and doing injustice to you merely because "Peace would be better".

TIL'd that self-defense = opportunistically siding with Fascists against all logic and reason when it looks like they're bound to win because some internet Communists said some mean things about your already-existing pro-Fascist tendencies

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

There you go again, ignoring mens issues and pretending its just mean words. Let me put it this way.

If fascists had put down this hate movement of yours a decade ago, i'd still be mentally well. Some men would be alive who are now dead.
And so on.

[Torrocca]

TIL'd that self-defense = opportunistically siding with Fascists against all logic and reason when it looks like they're bound to win because some internet Communists said some mean things about your already-existing pro-Fascist tendencies

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

"A movement to destroy any semblance of support of egalitarianism for minorities and women is totally self-defense, so I'm perfectly fine with siding with people that've made it clear that they'd openly kill swathes of non-whites if they had their way and have proven that they'll do exactly that by doing exactly that!"

This is just getting fucking pathetic now.

[West Leas Oros 2]

TIL'd that self-defense = opportunistically siding with Fascists against all logic and reason when it looks like they're bound to win because some internet Communists said some mean things about your already-existing pro-Fascist tendencies

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

There you go again, ignoring mens issues and pretending its just mean words. Let me put it this way.

If fascists had put down this hate movement of yours a decade ago, i'd still be mentally well. Some men would be alive who are now dead.
And so on.

I don't think allying with fascists is the way to do it Ostro.

[Valrifell]

Any leftist helping fascists get into power is short-sighted and/or suicidal. Sure, the feminists might go in the first purge, but who goes after that?

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

"A movement to destroy any semblance of support of egalitarianism for minorities and women is totally self-defense, so I'm perfectly fine with siding with people that've made it clear that they'd openly kill swathes of non-whites if they had their way and have proven that they'll do exactly that by doing exactly that!"

This is just getting fucking pathetic now.

There's that gaslighting I was talking about.

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

There you go again, ignoring mens issues and pretending its just mean words. Let me put it this way.

If fascists had put down this hate movement of yours a decade ago, i'd still be mentally well. Some men would be alive who are now dead.
And so on.

I don't think allying with fascists is the way to do it Ostro.

Point me to the other movement capable of mounting a significant offense.

[Proctopeo]

It's not just you. It's a pervasive problem with the left at the moment.
A movement to destroy the feminist movement and the progressive movement is self-defense, and you are not required to look around for the most palatable means to defend yourself. The far-right are currently closest to pulling it off. It's acceptable to back them on that basis, even if i'd rather not until things get worse at least.

There you go again, ignoring mens issues and pretending its just mean words. Let me put it this way.

If fascists had put down this hate movement of yours a decade ago, i'd still be mentally well. Some men would be alive who are now dead.
And so on.

I don't think allying with fascists is the way to do it Ostro.

Hypothetically speaking, it could be viable as a last-ditch effort to fight something unequivocally worse. Still risky and unsavory, however.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't think allying with fascists is the way to do it Ostro.

Hypothetically speaking, it could be viable as a last-ditch effort to fight something unequivocally worse. Still risky and unsavory, however.

We have seen that the rhetoric of live and let live and equality can declaw fascism. The progressives are immune to it, but advance a similar supremacist mindset.

[Valrifell]

I don't think allying with fascists is the way to do it Ostro.

Hypothetically speaking, it could be viable as a last-ditch effort to fight something unequivocally worse. Still risky and unsavory, however.

The feminists/progressives don't want my ideological comrades-in-arms to face a firing squad, so, like, fascists are unequivocally worse.

[Torrocca]

"A movement to destroy any semblance of support of egalitarianism for minorities and women is totally self-defense, so I'm perfectly fine with siding with people that've made it clear that they'd openly kill swathes of non-whites if they had their way and have proven that they'll do exactly that by doing exactly that!"

This is just getting fucking pathetic now.

There's that gaslighting I was talking about.

Explain how I'm gaslighting by interpreting your words accordingly.

Or am I somehow wrong here, and you're just saying you'll join up with the nice Fascists who totally don't want to purge and oppress minorities and basically anyone who isn't themselves?

[Ostroeuropa]

Hypothetically speaking, it could be viable as a last-ditch effort to fight something unequivocally worse. Still risky and unsavory, however.

The feminists don't want my ideological comrades-in-arms to face a firing squad, so, like, fascists are unequivocally worse.

You're judging them by the past in which other ideologies were likewise brutal and violent. Feminists have pushed for an end to due process rights, for victims of violence to be jailed as perpetrators, and so on.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Given that the forum's activity is going off a cliff at the moment, might not be a great time for LARPing as Fashfinder General and fanatically/obsessively inquisitoring for ideological purity.

Getting pretty sick of this juvenile shit.

[Torrocca]

Hypothetically speaking, it could be viable as a last-ditch effort to fight something unequivocally worse. Still risky and unsavory, however.

The feminists/progressives don't want my ideological comrades-in-arms to face a firing squad, so, like, fascists are unequivocally worse.

Barring some absolutely radicalized extremists, I'm pretty sure literally next to no Feminists want anyone put up against a firing squad.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Any leftist helping fascists get into power is short-sighted and/or suicidal. Sure, the feminists might go in the first purge, but who goes after that?

Exactly. If you want the progressives gone, do it yourself.

[Ostroeuropa]

There's that gaslighting I was talking about.

Explain how I'm gaslighting by interpreting your words accordingly.

Or am I somehow wrong here, and you're just saying you'll join up with the nice Fascists who totally don't want to purge and oppress minorities and basically anyone who isn't themselves?

It's not support for egalitarianism for minorities and women.