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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54898
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Tbh, you could seriously point to Hollywood as an example of this: competition between major studios drives a lot of them to pour obscene amounts of resources into "safe bets", chasing trends and sometimes directly meddling with their products to increase market appeal, often leading to mediocre or disastrous results. Countless passion projects end up in development hell, artists get fired for not accommodating to the financial aspirations of their bosses, and films get radically altered in post-production to emulate competitors' past successes.

Art seems to be a bad example considering how widely opinions vary on quality.

It's definitely subjective, yes, but even if you could argue that the films themselves are good, Hollywood trend-chasing does serve as a case study in innovation not inherently going hand in hand with competition.

Lindsay Ellis did a pretty cool video essay on the history of the Hollywood musical which was illustrative of this.
Last edited by Liriena on Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20637
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
New haven america wrote:A lot of innovation hasn't come from competition, it's come from curiosity, altruism, or not wanting to have to deal with something.

Can we find examples where absolutely no one involved, in either creation or distribution, had selfish intent?


Literally all science before the industrial revolution since all that was before the sciences were seen as a profession rather than a passion. Folks like Brahe and Newton were minor nobilitiy anyway so applying the desire for capital to their work doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Even after that, the science community has had several good eggs that do things against their personal interest. The polio vaccine is a famous example of this.
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Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12231
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:A socialist society would be stagnant without true competition. Why would cooperatives compete if their personal benefits do not change?

Cooperatives would be set up as such. Let us say we have one product, a car. This car is produced in two different factories. These cooperatives compete to produce the car most efficiently, and they do so because being more efficient reduces their working hours. It personally benefits them to work less because they can do other things, even if work is pleasant.

Northern Davincia wrote:Sure, a few people might decide to push ahead altruistically, but most will be content with whatever amount of free stuff they get. They have less of a motive to create something new because nothing is put at risk, and nothing is offered as a reward.
This is also ignoring the huge effect that capital has on innovation.

The number of people who will just choose not to work in any sort of way and sit at home is an extremely small minority. The vast majority of people want to do something.


Northern Davincia wrote:Sure, a few people might decide to push ahead altruistically, but most will be content with whatever amount of free stuff they get. They have less of a motive to create something new because nothing is put at risk, and nothing is offered as a reward.
This is also ignoring the huge effect that capital has on innovation.

Capital is very good at improving existing technologies, but it often takes the government funding development to get long term research (new inventions) done. A socialist system will be at least as good as capital in the former, and much better in the latter.

So if work is optional, why care about how many hours you work? You could show up for one hour and do very little, yet still get the very car others worked hard on for free.
Duvniask wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Can we find examples where absolutely no one involved, in either creation or distribution, had selfish intent?

Surely it is in one's own interest to improve the quality of life - shortening the work week, in other words increasing productivity, etc.? There's an incentive to innovate right there.

A business could very well benefit from kindness to workers, as demonstrated by Henry Ford, because it gives a serious edge over competitors.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Liriena wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
Because everyone's benefits change. There are a few altruists out there already and it can be argued that the capitalist system supresses altruistic thinking and encourages cut-throat competition and selfishness at every level and removing it would make people more likely to help a fella out.

Tbh, you could seriously point to Hollywood as an example of this: competition between major studios drives a lot of them to pour obscene amounts of resources into "safe bets", chasing trends and sometimes directly meddling with their products to increase market appeal, often leading to mediocre or disastrous results. Countless passion projects end up in development hell, artists get fired for not accommodating to the financial aspirations of their bosses, and films get radically altered in post-production to emulate competitors' past successes.

Don't forget the fact that studios end up buying as much as they possibly can, thus monopolizing the industry and controlling the flow of information.
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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:Cooperatives would be set up as such. Let us say we have one product, a car. This car is produced in two different factories. These cooperatives compete to produce the car most efficiently, and they do so because being more efficient reduces their working hours. It personally benefits them to work less because they can do other things, even if work is pleasant.


The number of people who will just choose not to work in any sort of way and sit at home is an extremely small minority. The vast majority of people want to do something.



Capital is very good at improving existing technologies, but it often takes the government funding development to get long term research (new inventions) done. A socialist system will be at least as good as capital in the former, and much better in the latter.

So if work is optional, why care about how many hours you work? You could show up for one hour and do very little, yet still get the very car others worked hard on for free.

For the greater good of society.

You do know there are other ways to motivate people other than pay, right?
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:Cooperatives would be set up as such. Let us say we have one product, a car. This car is produced in two different factories. These cooperatives compete to produce the car most efficiently, and they do so because being more efficient reduces their working hours. It personally benefits them to work less because they can do other things, even if work is pleasant.


The number of people who will just choose not to work in any sort of way and sit at home is an extremely small minority. The vast majority of people want to do something.



Capital is very good at improving existing technologies, but it often takes the government funding development to get long term research (new inventions) done. A socialist system will be at least as good as capital in the former, and much better in the latter.

So if work is optional, why care about how many hours you work? You could show up for one hour and do very little, yet still get the very car others worked hard on for free.
Duvniask wrote:Surely it is in one's own interest to improve the quality of life - shortening the work week, in other words increasing productivity, etc.? There's an incentive to innovate right there.

A business could very well benefit from kindness to workers, as demonstrated by Henry Ford, because it gives a serious edge over competitors.

1) Because you want to, or recognize that if everyone else does the same there will be no car.

2) Henry Ford raised wages and made sure workers were not dying because his wife threatened to divorce him if he didn't, and unions had started to put on pressure. He also did it for the PR. He wasn't 'kind' for no reason.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12231
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I would agree with you on it not being the sole driving factor, but in a modern context, I'd absolutely find it to be the main one.

If selfishness was the prime driver of human behavior, we'd already be living in communism.

I guess capitalists are the true altruists.
Ew.
New haven america wrote:
Liriena wrote:Tbh, you could seriously point to Hollywood as an example of this: competition between major studios drives a lot of them to pour obscene amounts of resources into "safe bets", chasing trends and sometimes directly meddling with their products to increase market appeal, often leading to mediocre or disastrous results. Countless passion projects end up in development hell, artists get fired for not accommodating to the financial aspirations of their bosses, and films get radically altered in post-production to emulate competitors' past successes.

Don't forget the fact that studios end up buying as much as they possibly can, thus monopolizing the industry and controlling the flow of information.

Disney will bring us Ancapistan.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:If selfishness was the prime driver of human behavior, we'd already be living in communism.

I guess capitalists are the true altruists.
Ew.
New haven america wrote:Don't forget the fact that studios end up buying as much as they possibly can, thus monopolizing the industry and controlling the flow of information.

Disney will bring us Ancapistan.

Are you familiar with class interest? Most people happen to be workers, an their interest is communism.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I guess capitalists are the true altruists.
Ew.

Disney will bring us Ancapistan.

Are you familiar with class interest? Most people happen to be workers, an their interest is communism.


My interest is not communism, and I say this as a worker.

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Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12231
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:So if work is optional, why care about how many hours you work? You could show up for one hour and do very little, yet still get the very car others worked hard on for free.

A business could very well benefit from kindness to workers, as demonstrated by Henry Ford, because it gives a serious edge over competitors.

1) Because you want to, or recognize that if everyone else does the same there will be no car.

2) Henry Ford raised wages and made sure workers were not dying because his wife threatened to divorce him if he didn't, and unions had started to put on pressure. He also did it for the PR. He wasn't 'kind' for no reason.

1. That explains the shortages in the Soviet Union.
2. His reasoning and the actual effects on his business are separate.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Orostan wrote:Are you familiar with class interest? Most people happen to be workers, an their interest is communism.


My interest is not communism, and I say this as a worker.

Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:48 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:1) Because you want to, or recognize that if everyone else does the same there will be no car.

2) Henry Ford raised wages and made sure workers were not dying because his wife threatened to divorce him if he didn't, and unions had started to put on pressure. He also did it for the PR. He wasn't 'kind' for no reason.

1. That explains the shortages in the Soviet Union.
2. His reasoning and the actual effects on his business are separate.

1. Do you understand what socialism or communism are or do you think they are the same thing?
2. No, they are not. This was a business decision primarily.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Orostan wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
My interest is not communism, and I say this as a worker.

Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?

That's why social democracy and corporate democracy exists.
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That's all folks~

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Orostan wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
My interest is not communism, and I say this as a worker.

Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?


No, yes and yes.

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54898
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
New haven america wrote:Don't forget the fact that studios end up buying as much as they possibly can, thus monopolizing the industry and controlling the flow of information.

Disney will bring us Ancapistan.

It's almost disturbing how deeply Disney has ingrained itself in my identity that I'm almost tempted to accept that.
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10743
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Orostan wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
My interest is not communism, and I say this as a worker.

Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?

Not really, yes, and yes.
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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:If selfishness was the prime driver of human behavior, we'd already be living in communism.

I guess capitalists are the true altruists.

Some of them are, while others are selfish little pricks.

Same thing goes for socialism.
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Orostan
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Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:52 pm

New haven america wrote:
Orostan wrote:Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?

That's why social democracy and corporate democracy exists.

Both of those are capitalism, or slightly altered capitalism.

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Orostan wrote:Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?


No, yes and yes.

The South Falls wrote:
Orostan wrote:Is it in your economic interest to own your own labor, to not be exploited, and to control your workplace democratically for your own benefit and the benefit of every other worker?

Not really, yes, and yes.

2/3 for communism

Though I'd like to know why you don't like owning your own labor. It implies you'd rather just be paid a constant wage not based on how much you contribute.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12231
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:54 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:1. That explains the shortages in the Soviet Union.
2. His reasoning and the actual effects on his business are separate.

1. Do you understand what socialism or communism are or do you think they are the same thing?
2. No, they are not. This was a business decision primarily.

1. Communism is merely the end stage of socialism. The same flaws that create shortages, namely the lack of incentive, are endemic to both.
2. A good business decision that just so happened to have competitive advantages.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:56 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:1. Do you understand what socialism or communism are or do you think they are the same thing?
2. No, they are not. This was a business decision primarily.

1. Communism is merely the end stage of socialism. The same flaws that create shortages, namely the lack of incentive, are endemic to both.
2. A good business decision that just so happened to have competitive advantages.

1. That's true but it's not that simple. Both are different economic systems, one has the other as the eventual goal. Also, shortages are not produced by socialism. The fastest industrialization in history was.

2. "Competitive advantages" is what makes a good business decision. Your statement is nonsensical.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:56 pm

Orostan wrote:
New haven america wrote:That's why social democracy and corporate democracy exists.

Both of those are capitalism, or slightly altered capitalism.

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
No, yes and yes.

The South Falls wrote:Not really, yes, and yes.

2/3 for communism

Though I'd like to know why you don't like owning your own labor. It implies you'd rather just be paid a constant wage not based on how much you contribute.


"2/3 for communism"?

That's a pretty odd way of saying "social democracy" there, fam.

Besides, I already earn a good wage based on my experience, position and tasks, so I am perfectly happy with it as long as there is no removal of my social advantages.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:00 pm

Orostan wrote:
New haven america wrote:That's why social democracy and corporate democracy exists.

Both of those are capitalism, or slightly altered capitalism.

Actually, social democracy is considered a form of socialism.

Like, literally, it's entire history is wrapped up in the socialist movement and was invented as a midway point between capitalism and socialism. It's socialism-lite, basically.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:00 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Orostan wrote:Both of those are capitalism, or slightly altered capitalism.



2/3 for communism

Though I'd like to know why you don't like owning your own labor. It implies you'd rather just be paid a constant wage not based on how much you contribute.


"2/3 for communism"?

That's a pretty odd way of saying "social democracy" there, fam.

Besides, I already earn a good wage based on my experience, position and tasks, so I am perfectly happy with it as long as there is no removal of my social advantages.

So you have a skill which allows you to leverage the labor market?

Also, there is no 2/3 of communism. There is communism, or there is not. When I said "2/3 for communism" I meant your interests align 2/3rds with communism in the cases I named, assuming you answered correctly.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3508
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:01 pm

New haven america wrote:
Orostan wrote:Both of those are capitalism, or slightly altered capitalism.

Actually, social democracy is considered a form of socialism.

Like, literally, it's entire history is wrapped up in the socialist movement and was invented as a midway point between capitalism and socialism. It's socialism-lite, basically.

Social Democracy used to mean literally Lenin. Today it means capitalism with regulations. The modern form was invented to prevent communists from gaining power, which it did.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12231
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:1. Communism is merely the end stage of socialism. The same flaws that create shortages, namely the lack of incentive, are endemic to both.
2. A good business decision that just so happened to have competitive advantages.

1. That's true but it's not that simple. Both are different economic systems, one has the other as the eventual goal. Also, shortages are not produced by socialism. The fastest industrialization in history was.

2. "Competitive advantages" is what makes a good business decision. Your statement is nonsensical.

1. Somehow all that industrialization (helped partly by the US) did not remove shortages of goods. You'll have to convince your fellow leftists that the USSR wasn't state-capitalist.
2. My point was that Ford's decision was beneficial to him because it was competitive.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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