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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27809
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:45 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Loben wrote:
thats.....fucking stupid.

It's really not.
Prostitution is no more 'selling your body' than waiting tables is.


Hell, even something as simple as a job in an office cubicle is selling your body, in a way.

It's menial, physically, compared to something like construction, but it's still mentally debilitating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1996
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:47 pm

God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.

User avatar
Libertarian Communist Planets
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 113
Founded: Apr 20, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Libertarian Communist Planets » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:49 pm

The Batorys wrote:All labor is selling your body.


Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27809
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:50 pm

Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.


It arguably is, unless you wanna argue that the millions of people who've been left disabled through physical labor didn't sell their bodies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:50 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Genivaria wrote:It's really not.
Prostitution is no more 'selling your body' than waiting tables is.


Hell, even something as simple as a job in an office cubicle is selling your body, in a way.

It's menial, physically, compared to something like construction, but it's still mentally debilitating.

I don't know about debilitating.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:51 pm

Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.

Work is work, some jobs require different skills and services than others.
'That's fucking stupid' and 'that would be retarded' don't really dispute that.

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1996
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:52 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.


It arguably is, unless you wanna argue that the millions of people who've been left disabled through physical labor didn't sell their bodies.


Im selling an attempted and very retarded correlation between this and slavery am i?

oh my fucking god i fucking am.

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1996
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:53 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.

Work is work, some jobs require different skills and services than others.
'That's fucking stupid' and 'that would be retarded' don't really dispute that.


I work in a fucking Distribution center.

How the fuck is that fucking comparable to fucking whoring out?

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:53 pm

Libertarian Communist Planets wrote:
The Batorys wrote:All labor is selling your body.


Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

I assure you that waiting tables is plenty objectifying, prostitutes get paid far more than I have.

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1996
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:54 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Libertarian Communist Planets wrote:
Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

I assure you that waiting tables is plenty objectifying, prostitutes get paid far more than I have.


well im sure that the service hookers provide is more....valuable than waiting tables.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Loben wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Work is work, some jobs require different skills and services than others.
'That's fucking stupid' and 'that would be retarded' don't really dispute that.


I work in a fucking Distribution center.

How the fuck is that fucking comparable to fucking whoring out?

I mean they're different kinds of work, and they both sound very tedious honestly.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Loben wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I assure you that waiting tables is plenty objectifying, prostitutes get paid far more than I have.


well im sure that the service hookers provide is more....valuable than waiting tables.

Value has nothing to do with it.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Libertarian Communist Planets wrote:
The Batorys wrote:All labor is selling your body.


Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

If someone wants to "objectify" themselves or "sell their bodies" what of it? It's theirs to sell isn't it? I mean, if you wanna ban prostitution, you may as well ban pornography.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1996
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:58 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Loben wrote:
well im sure that the service hookers provide is more....valuable than waiting tables.

Value has nothing to do with it.


Probably does.

everything has an intrinsic value associated with it.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27809
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:58 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Libertarian Communist Planets wrote:
Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

If someone wants to "objectify" themselves or "sell their bodies" what of it? It's theirs to sell isn't it? I mean, if you wanna ban prostitution, you may as well ban pornography.


What if it's not a matter of want, though? What if it's a matter of need so the person in question can survive in day-to-day life?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Kubra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17237
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kubra » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:00 pm

Loben wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Work is work, some jobs require different skills and services than others.
'That's fucking stupid' and 'that would be retarded' don't really dispute that.


I work in a fucking Distribution center.

How the fuck is that fucking comparable to fucking whoring out?
I mean, how is it not?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
Comrade J. Posadas

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:00 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Genivaria wrote:It's really not.
Prostitution is no more 'selling your body' than waiting tables is.


Hell, even something as simple as a job in an office cubicle is selling your body, in a way.

It's menial, physically, compared to something like construction, but it's still mentally debilitating.

Your brain is part of your body. It's another organ. People have this idea that mental labor is somehow distinct from physical labor. But we are all just selling the use of parts of our bodies in return for the currency we require to survive.

Also sex work does involve mental labor as well.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

User avatar
Dark Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 537
Founded: Jul 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Dark Socialism » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:02 pm

The Batorys wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Hell, even something as simple as a job in an office cubicle is selling your body, in a way.

It's menial, physically, compared to something like construction, but it's still mentally debilitating.


Also sex work does involve mental labor as well.

How?
Im leaving nationstates to prepare for EMP attack by the US government
A Futuristic Fascist empire in the American southwest where the population is selectively bred for eternal war and spiritual civilization.

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:02 pm

Libertarian Communist Planets wrote:
The Batorys wrote:All labor is selling your body.


Prostitution isn't only selling one's body. It is also objectifying one's body for the prurient interests of others. The liberal or progressive defense of the so-called oldest profession is just one more reason I have no interest in being a liberal or progressive.

All labor is objectifying one's body for the interests of others. You are not hired for your personality. You are hired as a tool.

Also if your leftism doesn't include the rights of sex workers, then you're just reinforcing society's irrational taboos.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:03 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.


It arguably is, unless you wanna argue that the millions of people who've been left disabled through physical labor didn't sell their bodies.

It's a strange idea that the sex worker is selling their body, but the miner is not.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:04 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Loben wrote:God help us if the left starts actually thinking that working is comparable to selling your body for sex.
because that would be retarded.

Work is work, some jobs require different skills and services than others.
'That's fucking stupid' and 'that would be retarded' don't really dispute that.

Sex work is just work. Its criminalization makes it much more dangerous than it otherwise would be.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:04 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:If someone wants to "objectify" themselves or "sell their bodies" what of it? It's theirs to sell isn't it? I mean, if you wanna ban prostitution, you may as well ban pornography.


What if it's not a matter of want, though? What if it's a matter of need so the person in question can survive in day-to-day life?

Well, if it puts bread on the table.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:04 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Loben wrote:
I work in a fucking Distribution center.

How the fuck is that fucking comparable to fucking whoring out?

I mean they're different kinds of work, and they both sound very tedious honestly.

It's just as much whoring out as literal whoring out.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27809
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:05 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
What if it's not a matter of want, though? What if it's a matter of need so the person in question can survive in day-to-day life?

Well, if it puts bread on the table.


Xen pls this is way too simplistic an outlook for this kinda shit ;~;
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Kubra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17237
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kubra » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Dark Socialism wrote:
The Batorys wrote:
Also sex work does involve mental labor as well.

How?
Not getting arrested, for one.
Beyond that, how do you reckon you are with knot-tying? Do you believe you effectively gauge consumer preference in the end product you deliver? Do you believe your job necessitates actively doing so?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
Comrade J. Posadas

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