LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Proctopeo]

"you did X so it's okay if I do X too!!"

I didn't say it was okay for Eodor to do it, I think it's in bad taste.

Fair enough I guess.

[Korouse]

1) This is not true. The Soviet Union did not have time to sort through every person of an ethnic group that collaborated with the Germans or the resources. The Soviet Union was not racist in the slightest here, as deporting ethnic groups was not done out of a dislike of those groups. Had that been true, the USSR would not have given economic assets to them and provided supplies.

2) The issue was high rates of collaboration. The millions of Soviet partisans and Tripp’s that fought for the Soviet Union versus the groups that fought against it make for a low rate among Russians. Even then, the Soviet government took measures after the war to make sure that Russian collaborators did not get away by keeping all former POWs in camps while they sorted through them, eventually releasing 80% of them.

3) Ethnic cleansing is not legitimate, and the reason why I dispute your idea that this was ethnic cleansing is because the deported were given supplies and houses in Central Asia to establish themselves. Had the USSR wanted to remove them permanently, they’d have exiled them from the country or something.

4) Yes, there was expropriation. Yes, the exiles were a bad thing, and I’d prefer it if they could have been avoided. However, for points described above, this does not constitute evidence of racism or evidence of a master ethnicity.

5) It is not generous. It is the bare minimum the Soviet state should have done and did.

6) I can find no evidence that they starved, only that they froze and had disease problems. I already said before that I don’t like either of these things and that I do not think it was deliberate.

Also, I don’t think the NKVD killed people. I can only find some statements that they wrote down the names of those they didn’t get to deport later. I can however find claims that the NKVD did burn people to death and kill prisoners at the start of WWII. It is not a coincidence these claims come from Nazi Germany.

And lastly, I will never unironically say “stalin did nothing wrong”. Stalin made mistakes, many of which I think could have been avoided had he done things differently.

1. Judging one person by the crimes of another of their ethnicity is pretty much racism. To assert that it was justified or legitimate is ridiculous.
2. How high do the rates have to be to visit punishment on an entire ethnic group?
3. Ethnic cleansing simply means you push people from a particular ethnicity from an area. That's what it is.

I really recommend "Affirmative Action Empire" by Terry Martin to the both of you. The Soviet Union did undertake nationality-based discrimination in their settlement programs, but it also undertook nationality-based consolidation and attainment of equal national rights at several times during its history even under Stalin, which was the genesis of the idea of deporting entire nationalities resisting integration/having a lot of connections with the German military to other SSRs and making them into minorities there.

[Bakery Hill]

This is what I had in mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaibakh_massacre

This whole article seems pretty dubious, and I wouldn't doubt something like this would become a popular point of contention considering the phony war on terror that Putin is waging in Chechnya. I also wouldn't doubt that an NKVD official would lie, but if the entire vertex of this discussion is on Stalin, then we should look at the provisions he typically ordered for minorities during deportation:


"d) To each train of special settlers, the USSR People's Commissariat of Public Health (comrade Miterev) is to assign, within a time frame to be coordinated with the USSR NKVD, one physician and two nurses, as well as an appropriate supply of medicines, and to provide medical and first-aid care to special settlers in transit;"

"e) The USSR People's Commissariat of Trade (comrade Liubimov) will provide all trains carrying special settlers with hot food and boiling water on a daily basis."

"The settlement of the special settlers will occur in state farm communities, existing collective farms, farms affiliated with enterprises, and in factory communities, for employment in agriculture and industry;"

"e) To grant plots of farm land to the newly arrived special settlers and to help them build homes by providing construction materials;"

https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/111000

The Soviet Union had made hundreds of nations before the 30s as apart of their nationalities policy, and that was necessarily done on ethnic lines. The same logic had applied here, only in context of depriving them of their national governance and moving them away to a place where they could work. Most people wouldn't call food/medicine shortages caused by war with the Nazis a "mass murder" on the fault of said government, I don't think they would call the theoretical logic behind granting people nationhood under a multicultural federation would be "fascistic" either. There's more comparison toward imperialist Britain than there is the Nazis, considering quite a lot of the settlers were placed in economically vital regions to work in timber or mining industries post-war.

I'd agree a comparison to the British is better.

Ultimately historians can have History Wars on this subject, but regardless of their intentions or whether deliberate atrocities occurred, ethnic cleansing is still bad. It's even worse if you understand that will result in mass casualties and do it anyway.

[Napkiraly]

1. Judging one person by the crimes of another of their ethnicity is pretty much racism. To assert that it was justified or legitimate is ridiculous.
2. How high do the rates have to be to visit punishment on an entire ethnic group?
3. Ethnic cleansing simply means you push people from a particular ethnicity from an area. That's what it is.

I really recommend "Affirmative Action Empire" by Terry Martin to the both of you. The Soviet Union did undertake nationality-based discrimination in their settlement programs, but it also undertook nationality-based consolidation and attainment of equal national rights at several times during its history even under Stalin, which was the genesis of the idea of deporting entire nationalities resisting integration/having a lot of connections with the German military to other SSRs and making them into minorities there.

That means legitimately nothing. It does not take away that the Soviet regime ethnically cleansed entire populations and in some instances quite possibly (or actually) committed genocide.

[Napkiraly]

"Oh well it wasn't the same industrial level killings as Hitler so XXXDDDD"
Yeah neither was Rwanda, doesn't mean we try to downplay that particular horror show.

[Bakery Hill]

1. Judging one person by the crimes of another of their ethnicity is pretty much racism. To assert that it was justified or legitimate is ridiculous.
2. How high do the rates have to be to visit punishment on an entire ethnic group?
3. Ethnic cleansing simply means you push people from a particular ethnicity from an area. That's what it is.

I really recommend "Affirmative Action Empire" by Terry Martin to the both of you. The Soviet Union did undertake nationality-based discrimination in their settlement programs, but it also undertook nationality-based consolidation and attainment of equal national rights at several times during its history even under Stalin, which was the genesis of the idea of deporting entire nationalities resisting integration/having a lot of connections with the German military to other SSRs and making them into minorities there.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a look when I can.

[Bakery Hill]

1. Judging one person by the crimes of another of their ethnicity is pretty much racism. To assert that it was justified or legitimate is ridiculous.
2. How high do the rates have to be to visit punishment on an entire ethnic group?
3. Ethnic cleansing simply means you push people from a particular ethnicity from an area. That's what it is.

1) You are ignoring the context of this. Had the government actually been racist they would have thrown all the deportees in gulags. They did not, and instead just moved them.

2) Again, you are ignoring the context of this. The Red Army did not have the time to go and root out every German collaborator.

3) That’s not what it is typically taken to mean though.

Hello Adolf.

The Soviet Union did not commit genocide during WWII or at any other period.

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

[Bakery Hill]

Evil, from a Marxist perspective, is not subjective. Otherwise, there would be no point in fighting capitalism internationally. “Workers of the world unite.”

This is why Marxism is not taken seriously.

You don't take Marxist seriously because it isn't post modern? I think you killed Jordan Peterson.

[Korouse]

In fact, I just illegally downloaded it!

edit: I mean that Affirmative Action book

[Napkiraly]

1) You are ignoring the context of this. Had the government actually been racist they would have thrown all the deportees in gulags. They did not, and instead just moved them.

2) Again, you are ignoring the context of this. The Red Army did not have the time to go and root out every German collaborator.

3) That’s not what it is typically taken to mean though.



The Soviet Union did not commit genocide during WWII or at any other period.

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

The Trail of Tears is now legitimate for everyone.

God bless. *pray hands emoji*

[Bakery Hill]

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

The Trail of Tears is now legitimate for everyone.

God bless. *pray hands emoji*

The Cherokee were a security threat folks! They didn't have time to find all the good Indians anyway, that's not practical. Anyway they gave them lovely reservations in Oklahoma!

[Korouse]

I really recommend "Affirmative Action Empire" by Terry Martin to the both of you. The Soviet Union did undertake nationality-based discrimination in their settlement programs, but it also undertook nationality-based consolidation and attainment of equal national rights at several times during its history even under Stalin, which was the genesis of the idea of deporting entire nationalities resisting integration/having a lot of connections with the German military to other SSRs and making them into minorities there.

That means legitimately nothing. It does not take away that the Soviet regime ethnically cleansed entire populations and in some instances quite possibly (or actually) committed genocide.

Terry Martin's book actually categorically rejects the idea that it was a genocide, and if you look at how most of them died during WW2 due to complications relating from a lack of nutrients and a cold environment, the picture becomes ostensibly clear: the Soviets had a severe food and medicines problem. There were several shortages that were experienced all throughout the Union that the settlers also faced, like not having enough bread or having their wages frozen.

[Korouse]

1) You are ignoring the context of this. Had the government actually been racist they would have thrown all the deportees in gulags. They did not, and instead just moved them.

2) Again, you are ignoring the context of this. The Red Army did not have the time to go and root out every German collaborator.

3) That’s not what it is typically taken to mean though.



The Soviet Union did not commit genocide during WWII or at any other period.

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

Terry Martin isn't a neocon you dope.

[Napkiraly]

That means legitimately nothing. It does not take away that the Soviet regime ethnically cleansed entire populations and in some instances quite possibly (or actually) committed genocide.

Terry Martin's book actually categorically rejects the idea that it was a genocide, and if you look at how most of them died during WW2 due to complications relating from a lack of nutrients and a cold environment, the picture becomes ostensibly clear: the Soviets had a severe food and medicines problem. There were several shortages that were experienced all throughout the Union that the settlers also faced, like not having enough bread or having their wages frozen.

I was referring to the actual bits as the Polish Operation and Decossackization. The latter especially fits the entire bill of a genocide. And intentionally deporting people into a hostile environment with little resources, knowing many of them are to die, would still fit the bill. Most Armenians weren't shot but rather forced into the middle of a damn desert to die of starvation, thirst, the elements, etc.

[Dahon]

In fact, I just illegally downloaded it!

edit: I mean that Affirmative Action book

Mind if you share the crime and... uh... "do the time" doesn't quite fit... uh... TG me a link or something. Yeah.

[Napkiraly]

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

Terry Martin isn't a neocon you dope.

He was being facetious.

[Bakery Hill]

The context does not make the crime acceptable. There is a genuine problem with some young men in the Muslim disapora in the West joining jihadist groups. Does this make every Muslim a victim by association? Does this mean we should humanely deport all Muslims, with compensation of course, as security threats? The far right thinks so, and they use both your logic and rhetoric to justify that.

People are not guilty by association or guilty until proven innocent. If your socialism acts on those principles it is totalitarianism.

And ethnic cleansing is exactly what I've said. For instance the assuredly horrible neocon fascist that Korouse cites, Terry Martin, defines ethnic cleansing as "the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory"

Terry Martin isn't a neocon you dope.

that's the point...

[Korouse]

Terry Martin's book actually categorically rejects the idea that it was a genocide, and if you look at how most of them died during WW2 due to complications relating from a lack of nutrients and a cold environment, the picture becomes ostensibly clear: the Soviets had a severe food and medicines problem. There were several shortages that were experienced all throughout the Union that the settlers also faced, like not having enough bread or having their wages frozen.

I was referring to the actual bits as the Polish Operation and Decossackization. The latter especially fits the entire bill of a genocide. And intentionally deporting people into a hostile environment with little resources, knowing many of them are to die, would still fit the bill. Most Armenians weren't shot but rather forced into the middle of a damn desert to die of starvation, thirst, the elements, etc.

I'm pretty sure several NKVD were shot and arrested for crimes committed during the Polish Operation, but I'm not too sure about the details. Decossackization was the dismantling of a cultural-political entity that had made its number one goal to keep the tsarist system and made up a military caste for them during that time, so I'm not too sure why dismantling it was a bad thing. The entire pop-history of it seems like it's based around the Black Book of Communism.

[Korouse]

Funnily enough, I did a quick re-reading of the Black Book on decossackization and it actually points out that there were "innumerable" reports about the conditions of Cossack deportees, and quotes several higher-up Cheka officials on infractions/crimes committed at lower levels of operations against Cossacks during their deportation. It sucks that I can't read Russian and get into the rest of the archives, because I very heavily doubt that this genocide narrative would hold up. Why would the apparatchiks report something like that to the Central Committee if the entire point was to commit crimes against the Cossacks? Not one of the quotes say anything about what context any of their communications are in.

[Second Empire of America]

You're an Absolute Monarchist. The Left should treat you just about as well as it treats the black sheep of the Fascist clan. If I recall correctly, it does.

I'm only roleplaying an absolute monarchy. I don't support absolute monarchies in real life. Whenever monarchism has come up OOC, I have opposed all monarchies other than constitutional monarchies.

[Genivaria]

You're an Absolute Monarchist. The Left should treat you just about as well as it treats the black sheep of the Fascist clan. If I recall correctly, it does.

I'm only roleplaying an absolute monarchy. I don't support absolute monarchies in real life. Whenever monarchism has come up OOC, I have opposed all monarchies other than constitutional monarchies.

In fairness being able to slap 'Imperial' on everything gives it about +20 cool points.

[Silver Commonwealth]

I'm only roleplaying an absolute monarchy. I don't support absolute monarchies in real life. Whenever monarchism has come up OOC, I have opposed all monarchies other than constitutional monarchies.

In fairness being able to slap 'Imperial' on everything gives it about +20 cool points.

Yup, true.

[Digital Planets]

I'm only roleplaying an absolute monarchy. I don't support absolute monarchies in real life. Whenever monarchism has come up OOC, I have opposed all monarchies other than constitutional monarchies.

In fairness being able to slap 'Imperial' on everything gives it about +20 cool points.

You're damned right.

[Napkiraly]

I was referring to the actual bits as the Polish Operation and Decossackization. The latter especially fits the entire bill of a genocide. And intentionally deporting people into a hostile environment with little resources, knowing many of them are to die, would still fit the bill. Most Armenians weren't shot but rather forced into the middle of a damn desert to die of starvation, thirst, the elements, etc.

I'm pretty sure several NKVD were shot and arrested for crimes committed during the Polish Operation, but I'm not too sure about the details. Decossackization was the dismantling of a cultural-political entity that had made its number one goal to keep the tsarist system and made up a military caste for them during that time, so I'm not too sure why dismantling it was a bad thing. The entire pop-history of it seems like it's based around the Black Book of Communism.

For reasons other than what they had done in the Polish Operation. Nor would it absolve the USSR of having committed a genocide.

Cossacks are also an ethnic group. Decossackization was the intentional attempt to destroy them as a people through killings, ethnic cleansing, etc. This constitutes it as an act of genocide.

[Eodor]

I'm pretty sure several NKVD were shot and arrested for crimes committed during the Polish Operation, but I'm not too sure about the details. Decossackization was the dismantling of a cultural-political entity that had made its number one goal to keep the tsarist system and made up a military caste for them during that time, so I'm not too sure why dismantling it was a bad thing. The entire pop-history of it seems like it's based around the Black Book of Communism.

For reasons other than what they had done in the Polish Operation. Nor would it absolve the USSR of having committed a genocide.

Cossacks are also an ethnic group. Decossackization was the intentional attempt to destroy them as a people through killings, ethnic cleansing, etc. This constitutes it as an act of genocide.

Cossacks are not an ethnic group, neither are kulaks of fifth-columnists so stop trying to make everything Stalin did as bad as you can make it out to be