LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Aellex]

On the topic of centrism, since that's a pretty trash "ideology", or lack thereof.

>when the extremists are pissy you don't support giving them privileges

Too bad I guess, smh

[Western Vale Confederacy]

On the topic of centrism, since that's a pretty trash "ideology", or lack thereof.

>when the extremists are pissy you don't support giving them privileges

Too bad I guess, smh

Me, a disadvantaged person: "Centrism is actually a good ideology."

Extremists and moral absolutists: "S-So you want to close only HALF of Auschwitz, i-is that what you mean!?"

[Greater Westralia]

I'm gonna take the word of the leaders of civil rights movements worldwide who've recognized centrism as a major problem to the very concept of civil rights, such as MLK Jr. or Desmond Tutu, over your word on this, chief.

I'm going to take the word of political scientists, you know, people whose profession involves defining and studying political ideologies and systems such as centrism over political leaders using heated rhetoric to rile up their supporters.

[First American Empire]

Extremists and moral absolutists: "S-So you want to close only HALF of Auschwitz, i-is that what you mean!?"

Thanos: "Yes." *kills half the universe because it's the midpoint between omnibenevolence and being an omnicidal maniac.*

[Dumb Ideologies]

There's a couple of different scenarios here. You obviously can't do much with an "enlightened centrist" who on anti-principle sticks with the current middle ground on all issues. But at the same time you can't realistically demand people be perfect or care about everything you care about in order to work with them. Everyone has different priorities and emphases, and if you demand that someone fights primarily on the issues you don't share or fuck off, yeah they're probably gonna choose the fuck off option.

[Grenartia]

The smug centrist meme is very much an accurate description, and centrism in general comes across as the political embodiment of the golden mean fallacy, at least to me. It has a very unironic "why not just cut the baby in half?" character to it.

[Torrocca]

I'm gonna take the word of the leaders of civil rights movements worldwide who've recognized centrism as a major problem to the very concept of civil rights, such as MLK Jr. or Desmond Tutu, over your word on this, chief.

So centrism bad, got it.

Yes.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

The smug centrist meme is very much an accurate description, and centrism in general comes across as the political embodiment of the golden mean fallacy, at least to me. It has a very unironic "why not just cut the baby in half?" character to it.

Imagine unironically subscribing to stereotypes and memes to judge a political ideology.

Guess that makes the right love their SS uniforms and the left their bread lines, eh?

[Greater Westralia]

Imagine unironically subscribing to stereotypes and memes to judge a political ideology.

Guess that makes the right love their SS uniforms and the left their bread lines, eh?

I wonder if proponents of "centrism is bad hurr durr" are just butt-hurt that moderates look down on their extreme of choice.

Because no one is that ignorant enough to seriously think "enlightened centrism" is an actual political ideology.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

On the topic of centrism, since that's a pretty trash "ideology", or lack thereof.

Most centrists I've met aren't really neutral on the subject of human rights.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

On the topic of centrism, since that's a pretty trash "ideology", or lack thereof.

Most centrists I've met aren't really neutral on the subject of human rights.

Most centrists consider human rights to be sacred and non-negotiable, but nah, clearly I’m fucking Thanos wanting to snap all human rights by half.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Most centrists I've met aren't really neutral on the subject of human rights.

Most centrists consider human rights to be sacred and non-negotiable, but nah, clearly I’m fucking Thanos wanting to snap all human rights by half.

A lot of the issue is that there's an observable tendency (though it's by no means universal) for centrists to have thought less about the theoretical and moral underpinnings of their beliefs. This isn't exactly their fault, though.

Criticism and debate encourages people to take a good hard look at the "why" of their beliefs, because it gives them an element of social cost and makes people think hard on what they can't compromise on. People who "go against the grain" politically in some major way are more likely to have had to defend themselves more regularly than those who are in the middle.

Clearly most current-day centrists aren't *actually* obsessive chasers of the political mean; they would stick to at least some of their principles if the political centre moved away from them. But because they've never had this happen before in their political lifetime they're reacting with understandable bewilderment with the moving of discourse towards extremes; previously they'd taken it for granted that their beliefs would be the "winning middle" in electoral and rhetorical terms.

A certain intellectual laziness and complacency always wanders in when ideas have been relatively unchallenged for a long period, and apoplectic incoherent spluttering in some quarters is to be expected while people dig around and try to rediscover the firmer ideological basis for their arguments.

Tl;dr version: It's not surprising that people who thought their position would be the "eternal middle" would slip into comments implying that being in the middle is virtuous in itself, but to think that's all the ideology actually is (and that it's not able to get its shit together and counterattack) is to engage in the very kind of complacency we're denigrating them for.

[Liriena]

I'm gonna take the word of the leaders of civil rights movements worldwide who've recognized centrism as a major problem to the very concept of civil rights, such as MLK Jr. or Desmond Tutu, over your word on this, chief.

So centrism bad, got it.

I kinda feel like it depends on who's calling themselves "centrist". Some have argued that many in the American left who identify as socialist could be more accurately defined as centrists, on the basis that their main policy ideas are only really "left-wing" and "radical" for the American political spectrum, but not on a global scale.

But when it comes to a very specific variant of "centrism", the "rational skeptic", "classical liberal" centrism embodied by many online talking heads like Dave Rubin, Tim Pool and Boogie, I'd definitely call their centrism "bad", since their centrism ultimately boils down to "don't do anything to improve the world and constantly shift the overton window to the right with mealy mouthed appeals to abstract, shallow ideals and pearl-clutching". That variant of centrism is a dead weight at best, and a useful idiot for the far right at worst.

[Fahran]

The smug centrist meme is very much an accurate description, and centrism in general comes across as the political embodiment of the golden mean fallacy, at least to me. It has a very unironic "why not just cut the baby in half?" character to it.

I agree a hundred percent. We should go all the way to the right. :^)

[Liriena]

The smug centrist meme is very much an accurate description, and centrism in general comes across as the political embodiment of the golden mean fallacy, at least to me. It has a very unironic "why not just cut the baby in half?" character to it.

I agree a hundred percent. We should go all the way to the right. :^)

Sorry, but no matter how far to the right you go, the state still won't make anime real

[Fahran]

Sorry, but no matter how far to the right you go, the state still won't make anime real

I want them to ban anime though.

Really, despite my attempt at humor, my conservatism is more cultural, academic, and social on the whole. I believe we should strive to create strong families, strong local communities, and strong academic institutions well-rooted in the more virtuous and palatable traditions that comprise our inheritance since these tend to correlate with positive social outcomes and represent intrinsic moral goods.

[Salus Maior]

Good for him.

Yup, especially since he was right about that.

Fence-sitting on the issue of human rights as if it's the reasonable thing to do is absolutely fucking stupid dogmatism.

I don't think centrism necessarily means you have to sit on the fence on everything.

I think a centrist can be described as someone who sees value in policies on both sides of the political spectrum. I'd say I'm a centrist for that reason, because I'm pro-some left wing economic policies and am pretty right wing when it comes to social and cultural values.

[Aellex]

So centrism bad, got it.

I kinda feel like it depends on who's calling themselves "centrist". Some have argued that many in the American left who identify as socialist could be more accurately defined as centrists, on the basis that their main policy ideas are only really "left-wing" and "radical" for the American political spectrum, but not on a global scale.

But when it comes to a very specific variant of "centrism", the "rational skeptic", "classical liberal" centrism embodied by many online talking heads like Dave Rubin, Tim Pool and Boogie, I'd definitely call their centrism "bad", since their centrism ultimately boils down to "don't do anything to improve the world and constantly shift the overton window to the right with mealy mouthed appeals to abstract, shallow ideals and pearl-clutching". That variant of centrism is a dead weight at best, and a useful idiot for the far right at worst.

The American left is only on the center insofar as it's on the right economically and the left socially, the opposite of a good combination sadly.

[Proctopeo]

Most centrists I've met aren't really neutral on the subject of human rights.

Most centrists consider human rights to be sacred and non-negotiable, but nah, clearly I’m fucking Thanos wanting to snap all human rights by half.

yeah but centrists and other moderates are the work of the devil dontcha know

[Torrocca]

Sorry, but no matter how far to the right you go, the state still won't make anime real

I want them to ban anime though.

Really, despite my attempt at humor, my conservatism is more cultural, academic, and social on the whole. I believe we should strive to create strong families, strong local communities, and strong academic institutions well-rooted in the more virtuous and palatable traditions that comprise our inheritance since these tend to correlate with positive social outcomes and represent intrinsic moral goods.

It's really interesting how we have beliefs that align with each other in radically different ways, tbh.

[Duvniask]

The smug centrist meme is very much an accurate description, and centrism in general comes across as the political embodiment of the golden mean fallacy, at least to me. It has a very unironic "why not just cut the baby in half?" character to it.

Imagine unironically subscribing to stereotypes and memes to judge a political ideology.

Guess that makes the right love their SS uniforms and the left their bread lines, eh?

It doesn't really say that though. Rather, I think you're looking at it in the wrong order. It's "the memes are true because they reflect reality", and not "reality is such, because the memes say so".

Most centrists I've met aren't really neutral on the subject of human rights.

Most centrists consider human rights to be sacred and non-negotiable, but nah, clearly I’m fucking Thanos wanting to snap all human rights by half.

In my experience this is oftentimes only on a surface level, with centrists paying "subscribing" to human rights, or any other rights for that matter, in the most vague and abstract way with little concern for their real-world implications. In other words, paying lip-service. For example, believing in the "right to life", without supporting the availability of healthcare for all, and even demonising those who do as left-wing extremists, etc. It is perhaps best exemplified in the response to those who fight against Nazis that they are "just as bad", or berating people who confront politicians in public, despite said politicians running the country into the ground (Mitch McConnel turtle-head comes to mind).

I mean, there's an entire subreddit dedicated to examples of "enlightened centrism", and not just memes, but people who genuinely spout the "both sides are the same" nonsense.

[Fahran]

It's really interesting how we have beliefs that align with each other in radically different ways, tbh.

A lot of that probably stems from a rejection of liberal hyper-individualism. Socialism as a movement actually had a strong appeal among certain traditionally conservative social groups such as peasants and coal miners principally because they saw how the ravages of liberalism were impacting the family and their old ways of life. There's a reason Appalachia went from being a hotbed of miners' strikes like it was during the Harlan County War to being one of the most conservative regions in the country. I don't think the culture has changed all that dramatically. Then, CM might know more about the subject than me.

[Proctopeo]

I mean, there's an entire subreddit dedicated to examples of "enlightened centrism", and not just memes, but people who genuinely spout the "both sides are the same" nonsense.

Eugh, checking that subreddit, and it's like, 90% enlightened authoritarian socialists circlejerking about how they're very smart and the librulls are all brainless morons.

[Fahran]

I mean, there's an entire subreddit dedicated to examples of "enlightened centrism", and not just memes, but people who genuinely spout the "both sides are the same" nonsense.

The Overton Window in a lot of liberal democracies is pretty darn narrow. For one, most people, broadly speaking, are liberals of one kind or another, and, even when you move beyond that, the differences are still quite limited as far as implementable programs go. The Tories can't eliminate the NHS tomorrow. The Democrats can't pass the Green New Deal in its current form. Why not? Parties are limited by what voters will tolerate and sweeping change doesn't sell in societies where a lot of people are doing comparatively well. With regard to partisan nastiness, the centrists are beating people in the streets or running over them with cars - so they come out looking pretty good at a superficial glance.

[Duvniask]

I mean, there's an entire subreddit dedicated to examples of "enlightened centrism", and not just memes, but people who genuinely spout the "both sides are the same" nonsense.

Eugh, checking that subreddit, and it's like, 90% enlightened authoritarian socialists circlejerking about how they're very smart and the librulls are all brainless morons.

I'm dying to see some examples because this sounds like a load of shit.